Max fragmento Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Trying to ID this jaw bone. Unknown collection locality. Bought from old neighbor. Scale is one inch increments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Folks, PLEASE read the guidance document for photographs. I'm getting frustrated of late at all these oblique photographs, which are next to useless for providing an identification. I find myself just passing by those posts and not even bothering to look - and I really don't like having to do that. Please, photographs straight on - Harry Pristis has provided dozens of examples of how to properly photograph specimens. Thanks The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max fragmento Posted August 2, 2014 Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 Wow. Testy. I read through the submission tips before I posted. I didnt find a spot that said don't post obliques. Don't know who Harry Pristis is and the search function of the page doesnt bring him up. Sorry for wasting your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinodigger Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 It's important to provide photographs which show the fossil from different positions. Sellers on eBay for instance often post pictures of fossil horse teeth from a side angle. It's impossible to ID a horse tooth without seeing the top enamel ridges. My impression is a canine jaw, possibly dog or wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 (edited) Max fragmento Posted Today, 12:44 AM Wow. Testy. I read through the submission tips before I posted. I didnt find a spot that said don't post obliques. Don't know who Harry Pristis is and the search function of the page doesnt bring him up. Sorry for wasting your time. This is not a good start for you, Max . . . you've got Rich annoyed, and now my feelings are hurt. Try to get back in our good graces by following this prescription: Land vertebrate cheek teeth and jaws which require identification should be photographed perpendicular to the left side, to the right side, and to the top (grinding surface). In other words, your images should be straight-on in a lingual, a labial, and an occlusal view. Here's an example: Edited August 2, 2014 by Harry Pristis http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 (edited) Nah, I wasn't annoyed specifically at Max - it seems to be a very frequent problem here, and seems to be increasing of late. It is just very frustrating to try to provide accurate information about fossils from photographs, even when they are perfect - it is so much harder when the photographs aren't orthogonal (at right angles to the 3 primary axes of length, width and height). Perhaps the photo guide needs to be updated? Rich PS - Harry - excellent photos, as usual. But... Mylohyas? Edited August 2, 2014 by RichW9090 The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 ...Perhaps the photo guide needs to be updated?... Yes, this needs doing! Some the existing guidelines were crafted in the Forum's infancy, before we really had the sophisticated member-resources that we now enjoy. I am going to have a look at what's pinned in Fossil ID, and see what we can do to make it better. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 PS - Harry - excellent photos, as usual. But... Mylohyas? Thanks for pointing out the typo, Rich. Transfer the label from one image to another and the typo is replicated. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Yes, this needs doing! Some the existing guidelines were crafted in the Forum's infancy, before we really had the sophisticated member-resources that we now enjoy. I am going to have a look at what's pinned in Fossil ID, and see what we can do to make it better. I agree and would suggest include images with the guidelines. Samples of teeth, jaws and bones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 So as not to hijack this thread any further, I have posted a call for input: LINK Thank you! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 No reason for anyone to be offended. The comments I read on this forum are always honest, straight forward and well intended. Improvement seldom comes without some conflict and annoyance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calhounensis Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Like other folks have said, better pictures will make for a more informed ID. I can tell you though, that it is a canid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max fragmento Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 I am resubmitting this thread with more appropriate photos to help with ID. No information about the collection locality. Thanks in advance for thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Looks like the jaw/mandible of a canine/dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I agree with jpevahouse. I think it's a canid, probably a dog. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) EDIT: My comment was not actually deleted, it was moved to another thread. It highlighted the fact that we should expect a wide range in quality for submitted photos since a wide variety of people with varying experience submit photos for identification. I also highlighted the fact that non-"cardinal" direction photos are actually quite important, and are being published more frequently in the peer reviewed literature. How are amateur collectors who aren't even sure what fossil they have going to magically know what the cardinal directions are anyway? This is a forum, not a peer reviewed journal, and I think a relaxed atmosphere benefits everyone, particularly those new to the field. Edited August 4, 2014 by Boesse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Boesse posted Today, 07:16 PM EDIT: My comment was not actually deleted, it was moved to another thread. It highlighted the fact that we should expect a wide range in quality for submitted photos since a wide variety of people with varying experience submit photos for identification. I also highlighted the fact that non-"cardinal" direction photos are actually quite important, and are being published more frequently in the peer reviewed literature. How are amateur collectors who aren't even sure what fossil they have going to magically know what the cardinal directions are anyway? This is a forum, not a peer reviewed journal, and I think a relaxed atmosphere benefits everyone, particularly those new to the field. That is not useful, Bobby. In order to have even substandard images, we first need standards. The clearer those standards are prescribed, the closer the average image will be to the standards. Thus, the overall educational function of TFF will be served . . . There is no magic involved in learning. I assume than anyone clever enough to subscribe to TFF is clever enough to absorb some posting guidelines. Look at it another way. The better the average quality of posts, the fewer newbie posts will be ignored. If the newbie is lucky, someone here may point out that his/her images and information are substandard. Even rarer, someone here tells the newbie what he/she can do to improve the chances of an identification. It's just more efficient to do that up front, with uniformity . . . in other words, with standards. More newbies will meet with success here, and TFF will be served. 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Of course it's useful. I will reiterate: this is a casual forum on the internet used by amateurs, students, and professionals alike. This is NOT a peer reviewed publishing venue. The benefit of having a relaxed atmosphere friendly to newbies outweighs the need for draconian photography requirements. I agree that the goal of the forum is for people to learn from one another - but strict attitudes are going to scare away newcomers and ultimately prevent that. We need to take a step back, remember that 1) this is just a casual web community and that 2) none of us are publishing peer reviewed research on here, and that ultimately it is OK that newbies - who may not have any background in paleontology, anatomy, or even photography - post substandard photos. To be absolutely clear - I am NOT arguing that we cannot give constructive criticism and instructions for taking better photographs. All I'm saying is - we're not journal editors, so if you see a substandard quality photo, just chill out. The sun will rise again tomorrow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I am NOT arguing that we cannot give constructive criticism and instructions for taking better photographs. All I'm saying is - we're not journal editors, so if you see a substandard quality photo, just chill out. The sun will rise again tomorrow. Now if the newbie is lucky, someone here may point out that his/her images and information are substandard. Even rarer, someone here tells the newbie what he/she can do to improve the chances of an identification. I see that you are advocating for the status quo, Bobby. I'm not sure why, but don't worry. If standards are adopted, you can continue to chill out. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruitbat Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I'm definitely with Boesse on this one. Granted, for a person submitting a fossil for identification, photographs showing the salient features of the specimen are likely to give the best chance for success. Unfortunately, many of the folks who are submitting their pictures, especially for the first time, might not know what features the 'experts' will be looking for, nor are they necessarily likely to read an entire treatise on what sorts of pictures they should be taking. I do understand the frustration that can arise when trying to identify a fossil from a picture, especially when that 'cusp' or 'loph' that you really need to see aren't shown...but I think a bit of patience is in order here. -Joe Illigitimati non carborundum Fruitbat's PDF Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyc Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Speaking as a former newbie and current amateur, I think we must consider how newbies first encounter this forum. Typically, they have just found their first fossil, or their first fossil that they think is cool enough to seek an id for. They are excited about their find. They are excited about locating an on line forum where they can hopefully get an id for their find. They are not thinking about any process at this point other than showing the specimen and having someone reply. After all if they look through any posts at all, that is likely their first impression of how the forum works. It was for me. It took a while to learn that pictures posted a certain way will get more replies than "substandard" photos. I for one have always appreciated the patience of the pros here in teaching me. However, I have at times detected some annoyance with a few of my posts for lacking in certain details. But isn't that sort of the nature in a teacher/student relationship anywhere? I think standards are ok, but I also think it is unlikely that adherence to them will not meet everyone's expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I don't think, Gary, that most newbies plunge into posting on the forum without looking around a bit further than you posit. How many times have we read, "I've been lurking here for a while, but this is my first post."? I do agree that there is always going to be a learning curve. Any learning curve can be shortened by instructions or it can be extended by a laissez faire attitude toward new learners. In other words, you can guide new learners into more effective behaviors; or, you can let new learners figure it out for themselves. Which of these options best serves TFF and its subscribers? http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 ...you can guide new learners into more effective behaviors; or, you can let new learners figure it out for themselves. Which of these options best serves TFF and its subscribers? Guidance in the form of best-practice tips is what we will offer. We can hope that the information is something of an eye-opening education to some, and that it will often serve the intended purpose. Expecting them to be universally adhered to is naive in the extreme. They will be suggestions, published as an aid to obtaining the best ID results; they will not be thrown in the face of any newcomer who does not use them, and when we will respond, it will be with patience and respect. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) A gallery of "good" and "bad" examples would be more informative that a bunch of words. Also, realize that some people are technically challenged when it comes to photography, and they have no eye for graphics, similar to how some people have no ear for music. I've seen photographs from "professionals" that were saturated, oddly illuminated, too dark, lacking contrast, not showing diagnostic features, etc. There is a technology to making the photos, but there is also an art. Edited August 5, 2014 by tmaier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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