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Lizard Osteoderms Possibly? More Bad Photos==Yes!


Plantguy

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Well gang, need some more help. I realize I'm violating the rules for this section of the forum by posting unclear photos but I just cant seem to get these shots in focus...As I was telling Alex recently I guess I need to try and get a macro lens for this phone (Galaxy S4). It does take some awesome photos of larger critters/ invert fossils but with this specimen high lite/natural lite and lots of other tries just aint making it thus far.

Anyways,wondering if any of you all have encountered lizard osteoderms by chance and can shed some expertise while I'm trying to get a response from some others in academia. Attached are the photos showing a textured pattern of collapsed hexagons/polygons photo2 and ones in photos 3,4 &5 with a radiating pattern and a comparison of my specimen on the left and then a photo of Heloderma (Photo 5) that I inadvertantly stumbled across--taken from "Helodermatid lizard from the Mio−Pliocene oak−hickory forest of Tennessee, eastern USA, and a review of monstersaurian osteoderms" JIM I. MEAD, BLAINE W. SCHUBERT, STEVEN C. WALLACE, and SANDRA L. SWIFT.

1 post-1240-0-50006200-1408731783_thumb.jpg 2 post-1240-0-71034800-1408731780_thumb.jpg 3 post-1240-0-21124100-1408731787_thumb.jpg 4 post-1240-0-09292600-1408731788_thumb.jpg 5 post-1240-0-18598400-1408731785_thumb.jpg

This was a surface find from a couple weeks ago at a construction site. Found in Manatee County, Florida with other fossils pictured photo 6 below. Not sure of age---Miocene/Plio/Pleistocene range with Meg and other shark teeth, horse tooth, alligator vert fragment,

. 6 post-1240-0-20049800-1408731782_thumb.jpg

If its not osteoderms I'm certainly open to other options! I believe we've ruled out crabby. It sure doesnt look like any of the other piles/pieces of black textures I've brought home. Thanks for your help! Regards, Chris

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...or elasmobranch cartilage?

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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I hope that it IS from an helodermatid; but, according to Hulbert, these lizards are known from the Early Miocene or maybe from the Early Middle Miocene in Florida.

http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page

 

What seest thou else

In the dark backward and abysm of time?

---Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

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Well Gang, thank you! You've already given me lots to ponder. Will keep you posted if I hear something back! Regards, Chris

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It looks like all the photos are of the same side. If so can you provide a photo of the other side? To me it looks like shark or ray cartilage as already proposed by Chas and Eric.

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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It looks like all the photos are of the same side. If so can you provide a photo of the other side? To me it looks like shark or ray cartilage as already proposed by Chas and Eric.

Marco Sr.

Hi Marco, I should have added in the original post that photographing the other side has been even more pathetic. Its slightly concave and has a very fine sandy coating that seems to be covering the details- I dont want to mess with it too much for fear of damaging it. I should have also added that its about 1/16" thick. I think I have a jury rig..taking new pictures now....

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Ok, this really hasnt gone alot better, but it was fun :rofl: and I got to talk to my son in Navy school tonight while I was trying to make this happen! I took apart some jewelers glasses and after messing them up a bit trying to clean them 1st I then rubber banded one of the lens to the cell phone and then balanced it on a specially selected juice glass of just the right height and whala! I do need some real equipment! I also now see many many white spots, polygons, hexagons from squinting and editing!

On the more serious side here's a couple shots of the inner or "underside" in photo 7 and 8 and its different mostly untextured surface and a few more of the "outer" other side? photos 9 & 10 showing some of the polygon patterns.

7post-1240-0-07467700-1408755057_thumb.jpg8post-1240-0-50922500-1408755058_thumb.jpg9post-1240-0-25614400-1408755056_thumb.jpg10post-1240-0-49423400-1408755059_thumb.jpg

If anything jumps out at you all let me know. ... I could live with cartilage...

More as I hear it. Thanks for your help thus far! Regards, Chris

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Plantguy, I'll send you the literature on Heloderma osteoderms. They are very distinctive.

The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence".

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Looks very much like cartilage in my collection, still very cool.

"Turn the fear of the unknown into the excitment of possibility!"


We dont stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing.

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  • 2 weeks later...

My buddy Dr. Jack Conrad, who studies fossil and modern squamates agrees that this is Heloderma! Attached are 2 relevant papers he wanted me to send you. Nice find!

Oh wow!

Congrats Chris!

~Charlie~

"There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK
->Get your Mosasaur print
->How to spot a fake Trilobite
->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG

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My buddy Dr. Jack Conrad, who studies fossil and modern squamates agrees that this is Heloderma! Attached are 2 relevant papers he wanted me to send you. Nice find!

Hi Carl, thanks for showing the photos around. Interesting feedback!
I'm wondering now if one of the pictures where I showed my unknown juxtaposed to one of the identified specimens taken from one of the papers has caused some confusion. Maybe not, but as it turns out, just in the last several days I have been corresponding with Dr. Jim Mead, author of one of those papers and he's thinking it is not Heloderma (a Gila monster) or one of its extinct cousins. He wasn't sure what it was and recommended trying Dr. Hulburt who I already had a message into.
Here is the paraphrased reasoning that Jim provided against a Heloderma ID: There are lines that appear to be radiating out from some of the centers of the polygons and they are not like the surface textures seen in Heloderma. It also appears that one of the polygons is actually long or thick, almost pillar like---and not button like in Heloderma.
Attached is a photo that Jim is ok with my sharing here showing the Heloderma vermiculate texture--a series of ridges, pits. The underside of the button is made up of a series of concentric rings; note the pin-hole foramens. My unknown doesnt exhibit these features.
post-1240-0-71988100-1409710420_thumb.jpg
I have also since received a note from Dr. Hulburt about narrowing down ID possibilities. One current consideration still on the table is a fragment of sawfish rostrum.
More as I get it. Again thanks to all of you who have provided suggestions to help narrow this down. We are getting there. I like these journeys!
Regards, Chris
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Here is the paraphrased reasoning that Jim provided against a Heloderma ID: There are lines that appear to be radiating out from some of the centers of the polygons and they are not like the surface textures seen in Heloderma. It also appears that one of the polygons is actually long or thick, almost pillar like---and not button like in Heloderma.
I have also since received a note from Dr. Hulburt about narrowing down ID possibilities. One current consideration still on the table is a fragment of sawfish rostrum.

Chris

Is there any way you can take a magnified picture of just a few polygons that would better show the individual polygon structure? Lines radiating from the center of the polygons is a feature of shark/ray cartilage. If your specimen is part of a sawfish rostrum that would make the specimen ray cartilage.

You might also look at this previous thread with part of a sawfish rostrum.

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/43679-can-anyone-help-me-id-this/?hl=anoxypristis#entry474657

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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