Are Fossil Shark Teeth Just Rocks?

[Shaney777]

On 12/15/2016 at 5:45 PM, Frostedoddity said:

I like fossils because they have history to them. Each one was part of an organism that once lived a life on Earth. That's pretty amazing! I have rib fragments belonging to hundreds of individual dugongs just sitting in buckets and bags in my garage. Time to fire up the tumbler.

Cool!!

[Shaney777]

On 12/16/2016 at 8:24 AM, fossiling said:

To add a good picture to illustrate this:

So here one can see a clear distinction between the enameloid and dentin.

This is a great picture. I've noticed this on a big great white I have that is split straight down the middle. Doesn't it only mean, though, that the individual structural parts remain intact while rocks replaces each aspect? A cast would not be possible since animals that develop into a cast are one singular "material," while a shark tooth is composed of several different "materials," right?

[sdsnl]

6 hours ago, Shaney777 said:

This is a great picture. I've noticed this on a big great white I have that is split straight down the middle. Doesn't it only mean, though, that the individual structural parts remain intact while rocks replaces each aspect? A cast would not be possible since animals that develop into a cast are one singular "material," while a shark tooth is composed of several different "materials," right?

As many others have tried to explain to you, shark teeth are not casts. The mineral replacement that happens during fossilization is just like how your body's atoms change, but your body still maintains the same structure (except if you gain or lose weight, lol). As your body metabolized, everything in your body is still at the right place in the right shape. Say you have a piece of cake, and after putting it there for a long time it dries (loses water), and then you decide to pour juice over it to remoisturize it and to add some flavor. Its composition has changed, its taste has changed, but it still has however many layers it was made to have, it still has the little pieces of fruit inside. The ingredients in the cake are not gonna all melt and become one homogeneous compound, which you then eat only tasting one thing. And I won't see any reason not to call it the same piece of cake.

 

A cast is a totally different thing. A cast is when the biological remains stays in the sediment for a while so that rock is hardened around it, then it decomposes, leaving an empty space in the rock carrying its original shape, and then something new comes in and fills that space. That newly deposited material is a cast fossil, which I can understand you having a problem with. But shark teeth are not that kind of fossils.

[trisk]

On 9/10/2014 at 1:55 PM, Auspex said:

For me, the topic has inspired a bit of philosophical introspection; I can honestly say that I had never before considered the viewpoint. It proves interesting!

This is definitely a very interesting discussion for the empirical details, the range of opinions, and the fundamental philosophical question raised. I'm surprised no one has brought up the Ship of Theseus, the thought experiment in classical philosophy that illustrates the problem of identity in a strikingly similar fashion. From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

 

Quote

The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their places, in so much that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same.

— Plutarch, Theseus^[2]

 

 

A modern variant I've seen is: "If 98% of the atoms in your body are replaced every year, are you still the same person?" - consider that this applies to other organisms as well, with quantitative variations.

[Shaney777]

On 12/22/2016 at 6:59 PM, sdsnl said:

As many others have tried to explain to you, shark teeth are not casts. The mineral replacement that happens during fossilization is just like how your body's atoms change, but your body still maintains the same structure (except if you gain or lose weight, lol). As your body metabolized, everything in your body is still at the right place in the right shape. Say you have a piece of cake, and after putting it there for a long time it dries (loses water), and then you decide to pour juice over it to remoisturize it and to add some flavor. Its composition has changed, its taste has changed, but it still has however many layers it was made to have, it still has the little pieces of fruit inside. The ingredients in the cake are not gonna all melt and become one homogeneous compound, which you then eat only tasting one thing. And I won't see any reason not to call it the same piece of cake.

 

A cast is a totally different thing. A cast is when the biological remains stays in the sediment for a while so that rock is hardened around it, then it decomposes, leaving an empty space in the rock carrying its original shape, and then something new comes in and fills that space. That newly deposited material is a cast fossil, which I can understand you having a problem with. But shark teeth are not that kind of fossils.

I never said that shark teeth were casts, though. The process they're formed from is permineralization. Mineral-rich water enters each pore in the tooth and replaces most organics, although possibly not all organics. But I appreciate the explanation you gave here. In my post you quoted from, I was explaining that shark teeth have several structural areas, and the structural areas must stay in tact throughout permineralization in order for the tooth to avoid being a singular cast.

[Shaney777]

On 9/8/2014 at 11:06 PM, Stocksdale said:

They are teeth that were used by a creature that lived many millions of years ago. That is pretty cool whether organic material is technically still there or not.

It is a neat way to experience some of the history of the planet. And the cells of that ancient shark are still there just filled in with minerals.

Do we know for sure that original cell "shells" filled with outside minerals are present in fossilized teeth?

[ynot]

32 minutes ago, Shaney777 said:

Do we know for sure that original cell "shells" filled with outside minerals are present in fossilized teeth?

No. The original minerals that made the tooth maybe replaced (partially or completely) or they maybe altered by the addition or removal of elements. The teeth may also be 99.9999% of the original with just some staining. Each site has its own type of fossilization.

 

[ArrestedBeauty]

     I apologize for such a late, if not complete off subject response...but so parallel one at the same time...When describing myself to othersleep that do not know me, I explain to them that I am "highly OCD"; to those that know me and love me anyway (Goddess love them), I lovingly refer to it as my neuroticism (not sure if that's even a real word). 

     What I had once believed was a love for the beautiful,  unique characteristics of different "rocks", has turned out to be (what I believe to be ), an uncanny knack at fettearing out "possible" fossils in a sea of pseudos. That being said, coming here I found myself having the wind kicked out of me. I mistook my beginner mistake of not cleaning the detritus of sediment around the fossils, for others not being open minded enough to see inside from my point of view. Never would I have thought myself to be so arrogant and self centered as to not step aside myself and services romantic others' perspective. 

     I wanted so bad for my samples to be exactly as I had pictured them, that I never once thought I could be wrong or having done anything so incomplete. Apart of my own neuroticism is my unending desire (in anything I set out to do) see it through to fruition to the best of my ability. Having found what I had believed to be "a job well done", was not even a job "half-a$$ed", I was thoroughly disillusioned, and almost gave up. 

     Had it not been for my OCD refusing to let me quit, and my innate desire to argue  (that be the redhead side coming out), I would not have been set forward on the path that I am now...one with an amazing group of people who have seemingly forgiven such a completely out of line, and hugely arrogent young women woman.

     I have this innate sense that you are going to do great things with your need for the fossils teeth to be the "original" material(s) of said owners. I believe that everything happens for a reason (even the bad) and that you had to have the "blindfold of childhood nievety" removed from your eyes, in order to prove (at least in part) that you were/are not nieve, that you are a scientist and a pioneer in your own right.

     When you prove your hypothesis to be correct in certain cases, you will have improved the field of study. Everyone has something that they can add, teach, or impart...as I feel the need to...I feel that you too, should figure out what that is...Happy Hunting Shane

 

-"In a room full of a hundred people, I feel all alone."  Alone you are no more, and nor am I...for we have TFF.

 

Best Regards, 

Julie

 

P.s. This is a small sample of my little slice of heaven...what the ground looks like on the property is live on. When I finally get a few of the small fossils I have cleaned up, I will put them up. Lord knows I don't have a clue what they are! 

[Shaney777]

On 1/2/2017 at 6:54 PM, ArrestedBeauty said:

     I apologize for such a late, if not complete off subject response...but so parallel one at the same time...When describing myself to othersleep that do not know me, I explain to them that I am "highly OCD"; to those that know me and love me anyway (Goddess love them), I lovingly refer to it as my neuroticism (not sure if that's even a real word). 

     What I had once believed was a love for the beautiful,  unique characteristics of different "rocks", has turned out to be (what I believe to be ), an uncanny knack at fettearing out "possible" fossils in a sea of pseudos. That being said, coming here I found myself having the wind kicked out of me. I mistook my beginner mistake of not cleaning the detritus of sediment around the fossils, for others not being open minded enough to see inside from my point of view. Never would I have thought myself to be so arrogant and self centered as to not step aside myself and services romantic others' perspective. 

     I wanted so bad for my samples to be exactly as I had pictured them, that I never once thought I could be wrong or having done anything so incomplete. Apart of my own neuroticism is my unending desire (in anything I set out to do) see it through to fruition to the best of my ability. Having found what I had believed to be "a job well done", was not even a job "half-a$$ed", I was thoroughly disillusioned, and almost gave up. 

     Had it not been for my OCD refusing to let me quit, and my innate desire to argue  (that be the redhead side coming out), I would not have been set forward on the path that I am now...one with an amazing group of people who have seemingly forgiven such a completely out of line, and hugely arrogent young women woman.

     I have this innate sense that you are going to do great things with your need for the fossils teeth to be the "original" material(s) of said owners. I believe that everything happens for a reason (even the bad) and that you had to have the "blindfold of childhood nievety" removed from your eyes, in order to prove (at least in part) that you were/are not nieve, that you are a scientist and a pioneer in your own right.

     When you prove your hypothesis to be correct in certain cases, you will have improved the field of study. Everyone has something that they can add, teach, or impart...as I feel the need to...I feel that you too, should figure out what that is...Happy Hunting Shane

 

-"In a room full of a hundred people, I feel all alone."  Alone you are no more, and nor am I...for we have TFF.

 

Best Regards, 

Julie

 

P.s. This is a small sample of my little slice of heaven...what the ground looks like on the property is live on. When I finally get a few of the small fossils I have cleaned up, I will put them up. Lord knows I don't have a clue what they are! 

Julie,

This is *such* a touching, thoughtful, intelligent, impressive, beautiful, caring, empathetic, and honest comment. I can tell that you have a pure and gentle soul. I'm so grateful for you and that you chose to write the post to me! I, too, have pretty severe OCD, so you are for sure not alone!  For your situation, I think that, regardless of what other TFF members thought about your "rocks," what makes them unique and special is that they were procured with YOUR mind - they were picked out based on what YOU believe is beautiful, and that is as "right" (in its own way) as anything else. Sure, there is a "standard" present, but I think you should be proud that what you'd initially done, YOU thought was to the best of your ability, as that (your enjoyment) is the most important in this hobby. Maybe you should keep sample examples of both cleaning "ways" - one will signify what you believe is beautiful, and the other will signify what is most accepted. I dearly hope you see my little response here! I know you haven't been online in a bit. Maybe if any of your member friends see this, they can relay it to you!