aplomado Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 On ebay, some folks are selling fish fossils straight from China. Is this legal under Chinese law? I thought invertebrates were ok, but was under the impression vertebrates were not. Anyone know for sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ansinian Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) If I am correct NO fossils from China can be legally exported. Laws about exporting fossils that were put decades ago are still in place now, so you probably don't wanna touch it. Edited October 13, 2014 by ansinian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raggedy Man Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) Nope, but if you do buy a well anything from China and or the middle east assume that you'll be doing some restorative work. US customs thinks they're really not fossils and contain some type of false bottom with a space bigger on the inside....so naturally they just drop them and see what happens. Best regards, Paul Edited October 13, 2014 by Raggedy Man ...I'm back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 US customs thinks they're really not fossils and contain some type of false bottom with a space bigger on the inside....so naturally they just drop them and see what happens. I was bringing some antique clocks through customs by hand, and the person who was doing the inspection must have been having a bad day. She tried to open them, and instead of asking me how they opened, she starting banging one of them up and down on the counter to crack it open. I asked her to stop, and she banged harder. So I yelled at the top of my lungs "HELP! SHE'S BREAKING MY PROPERTY!". Two more agents came over and carried her away. Then the next inspection agent said "Nice clocks, have a good day." And I was off, with my broken clock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Asian art is an interest of mine. Having learned something about the history of Asian art it's easy to understand why China is sensitive about foreigners removing antiquities. Up to fairly recent times foreigners carted off tons of Chinese artwork and antiquities often by bribing officials or just simply packing it up and sending it off to Europe. Ariel Stein was one of the most famous Europeans who traveled through the East searching for remote ancient ruins, then packing up everything he could get his hands on and sending it back to the British Museum for a price of course. Stein and others would chip carvings and paintings from the walls of ancient temples, deface and sometimes destroy some of the most important ancient sites of the world. Similar destruction of ancient artwork is still happening in Central and South America to feed the collector market. This is the reason I encourage American collectors to be aware of the importance of historic preservation. Without laws to protect our historic heritage there would be little left eventually which was not exploited or defaced. Edited October 14, 2014 by jpevahouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taogan Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Asian art is an interest of mine. Having learned something about the history of Asian art it's easy to understand why China is sensitive about foreigners removing antiquities. Up to fairly recent times foreigners carted off tons of Chinese artwork and antiquities often by bribing officials or just simply packing it up and sending it off to Europe. Ariel Stein was one of the most famous Europeans who traveled through the East searching for remote ancient ruins, then packing up everything he could get his hands on and sending it back to the British Museum for a price of course. Stein and others would chip carvings and paintings from the walls of ancient temples, deface and sometimes destroy some of the most important ancient sites of the world. Similar destruction of ancient artwork is still happening in Central and South America to feed the collector market. This is the reason I encourage American collectors to be aware of the importance of historic preservation. Without laws to protect our historic heritage there would be little left eventually which was not exploited or defaced. Sir Marc Aurel Stein was an archaeologist who by the standards of today was little more than a treasure hunter, but seen from a historical perspective was only doing the same as many other archaeologists of his time. Just try to imagine what would have been destroyed during the Cultural Revolution if it had not been in museums in Europe or the Americas. The question is about the current legislation on fossils so we should stick to the point. Although a lot of Chinese fossils I've seen do count more as art than natural history. Edited October 14, 2014 by Taogan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I can tell you that ICE is paying much more attention these days to fossil shipments coming to the US from countries prohibiting fossil export. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplomado Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 I've bought an ammonite fossil from China- though I believe it is exempt because I think it was from Madagascar originally, and also is an invertebrate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Sir Marc Aurel Stein was an archaeologist who by the standards of today was little more than a treasure hunter, but seen from a historical perspective was only doing the same as many other archaeologists of his time. I was in Athens and took the tour of the Agora. There was a long row of beautiful statues, but they were headless. The tour guide said "Here you see the bodies... go to the British Museum if you want to see the heads." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 There were numerous hired treasure hunters working on commission for European museums. They scoured the east traveling deep into vast remote areas seeking abandoned ancient cities and temples. They can be admired for their courage if nothing else. Bandits and criminals of all types preyed on travelers through those remote areas. The Mogao cave complex of north western China was Stein's most famous find. Stein's French counter part Paul Pelliot also visited the site in 1908 and removed many rare antiquities. But whether they saved anything from imminent destruction is questionable. Mogao is so remote and isolated it stayed well preserved by virtue of it's isolation and extreme dryness for almost a thousand years. Sometimes it's better to leave things alone. British historians of the early 20th century damaged ancient Indian temple cave paintings by attempting very bad restorations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Greece is still trying to get the British Museum to return statuary taken from the Parthenon during the 19th century. The British have no intention of returning the Elgin Marbles, some of their most well known Greek antiquities. I was in Athens and took the tour of the Agora. There was a long row of beautiful statues, but they were headless. The tour guide said "Here you see the bodies... go to the British Museum if you want to see the heads." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taogan Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Not just Europeans There were numerous hired treasure hunters working on commission for European museums. They scoured the east traveling deep into vast remote areas seeking abandoned ancient cities and temples. They can be admired for their courage if nothing else. Bandits and criminals of all types preyed on travelers through those remote areas. The Mogao cave complex of north western China was Stein's most famous find. Stein's French counter part Paul Pelliot also visited the site in 1908 and removed many rare antiquities. But whether they saved anything from imminent destruction is questionable. Mogao is so remote and isolated it stayed well preserved by virtue of it's isolation and extreme dryness for almost a thousand years. Sometimes it's better to leave things alone. British historians of the early 20th century damaged ancient Indian temple cave paintings by attempting very bad restorations. Don't forget the other nationalities working for other museums, The Smithsonian is also rather full of artefacts collected during the early 20th Century. At the time it was legal and normal. What will the archaeologists in the 22nd Century say about the barbaric methods we use that are legal and normal today. At least the Diamond Sutra can be studied without travelling to a remote area of a difficult to access country and being a religious book who is to say how well it would have survived the political upheavals. Retrospective condemnation is a waste of energy, we all have 20/20 hindsight. Edited October 14, 2014 by Taogan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I've bought an ammonite fossil from China- though I believe it is exempt because I think it was from Madagascar originally, and also is an invertebrate... I don't think China's ban on exports differentiates between verts and inverts. No fossils are allowed to leave China. I think Madagascar has similar rules. Over the past few years, China has actuially cracked down on this, so you see much fewer Chinese fossils at the rock shows. Madagascar not so much. The original question though has nothing to do with the export of fossils form China.. aplomado asked if it was legal to IMPORT fossils from China. That depends on agreements between the US and China. Just cuz it is illegal to export from one place does not mean it is illegal to import the same stuff into another place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) I agree, trying to judge or rewrite history is a pointless venture. Adventurers like Stein and Pelliot were men of their time and place. Though they profited from their efforts they also contributed to science, made things available in Europe which would have otherwise not been available. Adventurers were greatly admired during their time. I think the last half of the Victorian era was the great age of discovery. Climbing Mt Everest or reaching the Poles were looked upon as great achievements just as our generation had to go to the moon. Not just Europeans Don't forget the other nationalities working for other museums, The Smithsonian is also rather full of artefacts collected during the early 20th Century. At the time it was legal and normal. What will the archaeologists in the 22nd Century say about the barbaric methods we use that are legal and normal today. At least the Diamond Sutra can be studied without travelling to a remote area of a difficult to access country and being a religious book who is to say how well it would have survived the political upheavals. Retrospective condemnation is a waste of energy, we all have 20/20 hindsight. Edited October 14, 2014 by jpevahouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I was bringing some antique clocks through customs by hand, and the person who was doing the inspection must have been having a bad day. She tried to open them, and instead of asking me how they opened, she starting banging one of them up and down on the counter to crack it open. I asked her to stop, and she banged harder. So I yelled at the top of my lungs "HELP! SHE'S BREAKING MY PROPERTY!". Two more agents came over and carried her away. Then the next inspection agent said "Nice clocks, have a good day." And I was off, with my broken clock. WOW... I have heard other horror stories here on TFF, and I suspect our Cdn mail inspection people did something similar to the fossils I ordered at great cost last year from TN which never arrived. I understand the need for their job but not this kind of incompetence. No one should be required to put their valuables in the hands of someone like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 WOW... I have heard other horror stories here on TFF, It was more like a Monty Python skit. My clock was traumatized by it, though. Inspection people are not paid well and they suffer from the same problems as other people. Sometimes they take the frustrations of their personal lives out on the customers (and their clocks). That was why I was hand carrying the clocks, so I could oversee the inspectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 It was more like a Monty Python skit. My clock was traumatized by it, though. Inspection people are not paid well and they suffer from the same problems as other people. Sometimes they take the frustrations of their personal lives out on the customers (and their clocks). That was why I was hand carrying the clocks, so I could oversee the inspectors. Little good it did you, your clock was broken. I might have been too afraid to raise my voice in case it made them even more suspicious of me/my package (as your initial complaining did), but I will remember your story in case I ever end up in the same situation! I've been watching those border security shows and they certainly seem to be professional and they should be paid well, but of course we only see what gets selected for TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 It was more like a Monty Python skit... I was bringing some antique clocks through customs ... So I yelled at the top of my lungs "HELP!HELP! I'M BEING OPPRESSED!". ... Fixed it for you. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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