EasternShore88 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I forgot to post my finds from last week when I found this awesome ray plate. This is again from the Choptank Formation, I don't know how to go about identifying what type of ray it is from, but definitely one of the nicest I have seen or found. Any ideas? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squali Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Wow that is a really nice plate.!! Thanks for posting it. 1 It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old bones Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 That is a beautiful find, great condition too! I'm sure someone here can tell you which ray it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey P Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 That piece is huge, way bigger than any of the others I've seen. A real beaut! Big congrats, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilized6s Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) That is amazing! Congrats on the lifetime find! Im guessing 'Eagle Ray'. Edited October 23, 2014 by fossilized6s 1 ~Charlie~ "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK ->Get your Mosasaur print ->How to spot a fake Trilobite ->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) The plate is definitely myliobatid, eagle ray. Of the four genus in the family, the plate is either Myliobatis or Pteromylaeus. The arching of the median teeth may indicate Pteromylaeus although Myliobatis teeth can be arched in some species. Marco Sr. Edited October 23, 2014 by MarcoSr 1 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternShore88 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 Thanks for the ID! The piece is actually in two as you can see the crack down the middle but it fits back together like a puzzle. I had no idea it was such a rare find. I have only one other ray plate that my girlfriend found from the Aquia Formaton. I'm going to go back to this location tomorrow and see if I can find that top section that is missing. This plate was fresh out of the exposure as you can still see the clay in the groves. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Oh wow! Nice! So thats what I'm looking for...I dont think I even have enough partial scraps that I've found to build one of them that size. Good luck finding the missing part. Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 The plate is definitely myliobatid, eagle ray. Of the four genus in the family, the plate is either Myliobatis or Pteromylaeus. The arching of the median teeth may indicate Pteromylaeus although Myliobatis teeth can be arched in some species. Marco Sr. Marco Sr. I know some rays get pretty big. Is there any way to guestimate how big a 'wing span' the critter would be that this fell out of? I find lots of smaller fragments and the largest segments are only 1/4" by maybe 2" long...which appears similar to those in the plate that Andrew found. Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terphunter Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Cool..I have a big jar of broken plate parts...never got one that nice! LIFE IS SHORT...HUNT HARD!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBOB Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I also have never seen a plate that intact and big. Awesome find! I too have only found just tiny pieces of ray mouth plates. That's a winner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILDKYLE Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Nice ray plate! I'm used to just finding the single little pieces of them. Congrats on this! Fossil hunting from dawn til' dusk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Marco Sr. I know some rays get pretty big. Is there any way to guestimate how big a 'wing span' the critter would be that this fell out of? I find lots of smaller fragments and the largest segments are only 1/4" by maybe 2" long...which appears similar to those in the plate that Andrew found. Regards, Chris Chris First you would need a study of extant eagle rays that looked at wing span versus plate size to see if there is a correlation and determine what it is. I'm not aware of a study like that being done. Even if it had, if the species was extinct, you would have to somehow extrapolate extant size data to extinct size data. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Chris First you would need a study of extant eagle rays that looked at wing span versus plate size to see if there is a correlation and determine what it is. I'm not aware of a study like that being done. Even if it had, if the species was extinct, you would have to somehow extrapolate extant size data to extinct size data. Marco Sr. Marco Sr. Thanks for the reply. Hulbert's book that I just got has some dental plates in Fig 4.28 and I was looking for more pictures and saw this pub which looks pretty cool...at least the one illustration looks great http://www.palaeontos.be/24/det24.htm I'm going to a phosphate mine this weekend with the local TB fossil club Bringing home more than an individual tooth, a ray plate would be very good! I'll put it on my shopping list. Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Marco Sr. Thanks for the reply. Hulbert's book that I just got has some dental plates in Fig 4.28 and I was looking for more pictures and saw this pub which looks pretty cool...at least the one illustration looks great http://www.palaeontos.be/24/det24.htm I'm going to a phosphate mine this weekend with the local TB fossil club Bringing home more than an individual tooth, a ray plate would be very good! I'll put it on my shopping list. Regards, Chris Chris Your link shows the wide variation in the median and lateral teeth of an extant Myliobatis species. This variation makes identification of even complete plates difficult at times. Rays shed teeth from their plates during life. So if you find individual teeth you are most likely finding shed teeth. If you find a plate, that is from a ray which died. So plates are much less common than the individual teeth. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Rays shed teeth from their plates during life. So if you find individual teeth you are most likely finding shed teeth. If you find a plate, that is from a ray which died. So plates are much less common than the individual teeth. Marco Sr. Here's the part that baffles me. When I find the individual bars from these rays they are normally in pretty pristine condition but when I look at complete mouthplates, the front tooth bar that is about to be lost is almost always very worn down sometimes to the point of being worn away completely. Here's a photo of a modern one to illustrate the point. From this web site:http://australianmuseum.net.au/blogpost/Science/Diamonds-make-valuable-discovery 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Here's the part that baffles me. When I find the individual bars from these rays they are normally in pretty pristine condition but when I look at complete mouthplates, the front tooth bar that is about to be lost is almost always very worn down sometimes to the point of being worn away completely. Here's a photo of a modern one to illustrate the point. From this web site:http://australianmuseum.net.au/blogpost/Science/Diamonds-make-valuable-discovery myliobatis australis.jpg Eric I collect from two sites, one Paleocene site in MD and one Eocene site in VA, where myliobatid, eagle ray teeth are extremely common. The teeth are usually in great shape. So your point is well taken because it is the active teeth that get shed and they can be pretty worn. Yet the teeth in the plates of modern eagle rays are locked tightly together. So it is hard to imagine a plate easily breaking into individual teeth after death. Plus I have found thousands of individual teeth but I rarely find two or three teeth together which you would expect if the plates easily split apart after death. Plus when you find a partial plate you normally see evidence of damage at the missing part. So it doesn't make sense that all of these single teeth came from plates breaking up after death. So I agree it is baffling. Marco Sr. 1 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternShore88 Posted October 25, 2014 Author Share Posted October 25, 2014 Believe it or not but I went back today and found where this plate came from. I found a whole bunch of other pieces that fit together like a puzzle. I'll get a picture posted up tomorrow once I get it all put back together. Debating whether or not to glue it or leave it as is, seems like there's still pieces missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) Believe it or not but I went back today and found where this plate came from. I found a whole bunch of other pieces that fit together like a puzzle. I'll get a picture posted up tomorrow once I get it all put back together. Debating whether or not to glue it or leave it as is, seems like there's still pieces missing. Very nice. looking forward to seeing what you got. Eric I collect from two sites, one Paleocene site in MD and one Eocene site in VA, where myliobatid, eagle ray teeth are extremely common. The teeth are usually in great shape. So your point is well taken because it is the active teeth that get shed and they can be pretty worn. Yet the teeth in the plates of modern eagle rays are locked tightly together. So it is hard to imagine a plate easily breaking into individual teeth after death. Plus I have found thousands of individual teeth but I rarely find two or three teeth together which you would expect if the plates easily split apart after death. Plus when you find a partial plate you normally see evidence of damage at the missing part. So it doesn't make sense that all of these single teeth came from plates breaking up after death. So I agree it is baffling. Marco Sr. So you got me wondering outloud which is always slightly dangerous....So since these guys arent at the top of the food chain...how do they meet their ends? Do they mostly get eaten by or scavenged by something larger like sharks and or other larger fish? Does that process perhaps damage/break apart the plates? Do many make it long enough to die of old age? Are the digestive tracts and their acids in those larger folks strong enough to dissolve the teeth or can they survive and get regurgitated? Not sure how this post just got entered without me doing anything but Ok I guess enough questions for the day. Regards, Chris Edited October 25, 2014 by Plantguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squali Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Eric I collect from two sites, one Paleocene site in MD and one Eocene site in VA, where myliobatid, eagle ray teeth are extremely common. The teeth are usually in great shape. So your point is well taken because it is the active teeth that get shed and they can be pretty worn. Yet the teeth in the plates of modern eagle rays are locked tightly together. So it is hard to imagine a plate easily breaking into individual teeth after death. Plus I have found thousands of individual teeth but I rarely find two or three teeth together which you would expect if the plates easily split apart after death. Plus when you find a partial plate you normally see evidence of damage at the missing part. So it doesn't make sense that all of these single teeth came from plates breaking up after death. So I agree it is baffling. Marco Sr. Ok so there are millions of living rays. A very small percentage die correctly to become fossils with intact jaw plates. A larger percentage dis articulate in place releasing the unworn teeth from the jaw plate as decomposition takes place. It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masonboro37 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Awesome find! Beautiful and thanks for sharing. Process of identification "mistakes create wisdom". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Very nice. looking forward to seeing what you got. So you got me wondering outloud which is always slightly dangerous....So since these guys arent at the top of the food chain...how do they meet their ends? Do they mostly get eaten by or scavenged by something larger like sharks and or other larger fish? Does that process perhaps damage/break apart the plates? Do many make it long enough to die of old age? Are the digestive tracts and their acids in those larger folks strong enough to dissolve the teeth or can they survive and get regurgitated? Not sure how this post just got entered without me doing anything but Ok I guess enough questions for the day. Regards, Chris Ok so there are millions of living rays. A very small percentage die correctly to become fossils with intact jaw plates. A larger percentage dis articulate in place releasing the unworn teeth from the jaw plate as decomposition takes place. What is really missing is the study of extant species. What do the teeth look like that they shed; How they die; How the remains decompose; What happens to the plates as they decompose. Sifting Aquarium sand might answer the first question. I've seen several articles on Dasyatis teeth sifted from Aquarium sands. Marco Sr. 1 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squali Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Great point Marco! I agree completely with your idea of a modern study. When I read back my posts I sometimes feel they can be misunderstood in terms of tone. I'm going to email the NJ State Aquarium in Camden and ask them about the ray teeth. They have a fairly large display of the modern rays. It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 What is really missing is the study of extant species. What do the teeth look like that they shed; How they die; How the remains decompose; What happens to the plates as they decompose. Sifting Aquarium sand might answer the first question. I've seen several articles on Dasyatis teeth sifted from Aquarium sands. Marco Sr. Great point Marco! I agree completely with your idea of a modern study. When I read back my posts I sometimes feel they can be misunderstood in terms of tone. I'm going to email the NJ State Aquarium in Camden and ask them about the ray teeth. They have a fairly large display of the modern rays. Thanks guys for putting up with all the questions--appreciate the enlightening. I did have some fun in the phosphate piles/pit today--my back didnt say it was fun, but I overruled it. No articulated plate found by me or anyone in our group. uggh. I did find quite a number of fragments of tail barbs, teeth, and a few dermal spines and the usual small shark teeth and other insundries.. Thanks! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternShore88 Posted October 26, 2014 Author Share Posted October 26, 2014 Ok guys so I went back yesterday to where I found the plate. After hours of searching I found the exact spot where the plate washed out and carefully pulled out every little piece that I could see of which most were very small. I then spent a few hours today gluing them all back together and this is what I came up with. There is obviously a lot still missing and I think with some time I should be able to find more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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