Arthropods Not Ferns From St.clair, Pa

[fossilcrazy]

Collecting at St.Clair, Pa is pretty much about gathering fossil ferns. On rare occasions, one can get lucky with an Arthropod find. I did that once with a Megasecoptera wing. If you don't pay attention one could pass by such a find thinking it's just another Neuropteris pinnule. The veining is a big give away. Here are pictures of the wing. Notice there is a Neuropteris ovata present.

Wing part Wing counterpart Wing scale Highlighted vein detail

The reason I'm posting this topic is to get help identifying this Arthropod part.

Unidentified part Scale of the part

I have been suspecting the diamond shaped cuticle is perhaps from a Blattia family member.

Making comparisons is making me (fossil) crazy. The rub is in the details. Check out some choices.

In the past I have found plain looking white flat pieces and disregarded them. They were probably Insect cuticle!

Anyone else find these and identify similar pieces?

Edited November 10, 2014 by fossilcrazy

[Missourian]

Arthropod material from St. Clair at last! Congrats.

[Ludwigia]

Hi John,

I've got nothing from St.Clair, but maybe you've heard of the Piesberg near Osnabrueck in Germany which produces a similar carboniferous fauna. Here is something I found there with a leaf next to it which illustrates how easy it is to overlook such little things. I'll send you a PN in a minute which might be helpful for following up on your question.

Phylloblatta sp. 18mm. In revision.

[Shamalama]

Hmmm... never thought that some of the unidentifiable bits were from Insects. I found the positive and negative of a wing a few years back. Here is the original post and pictures: http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/6263-insect-wings-from-st-clair/ Based on your pictures I'm thinking it may very well be from a Megasecoptera.

[hitekmastr]

Carboniferous collectors are beginning to realize that there is hidden fossil insect gold in their finds - including specimens already collected. We have insect signs in our collection but no body parts so far...important to stay vigilant since the insect parts may be on pieces that would normally be discarded or overlooked because most of us are looking for well articulated large plant sections and the insect parts could be on any size or shape piece of shale, very random. Tough to target searches for insect in carboniferous strata but we should all be more attentive to the possibility of insects amond the ferns. I've always wondered why we don't see more insect signs in the plant fossils - I don't buy the argument that there weren't many insects or they didn't preserve well. I think they are there, and more can be found with added focus.

[hitekmastr]

Hi John,

I've got nothing from St.Clair, but maybe you've heard of the Piesberg near Osnabrueck in Germany which produces a similar carboniferous fauna. Here is something I found there with a leaf next to it which illustrates how easy it is to overlook such little things. I'll send you a PN in a minute which might be helpful for following up on your question.

I.3a.2.jpg Phylloblatta sp. 18mm. In revision.

SUPERB.

[Ludwigia]

Carboniferous collectors are beginning to realize that there is hidden fossil insect gold in their finds - including specimens already collected. We have insect signs in our collection but no body parts so far...important to stay vigilant since the insect parts may be on pieces that would normally be discarded or overlooked because most of us are looking for well articulated large plant sections and the insect parts could be on any size or shape piece of shale, very random. Tough to target searches for insect in carboniferous strata but we should all be more attentive to the possibility of insects amond the ferns. I've always wondered why we don't see more insect signs in the plant fossils - I don't buy the argument that there weren't many insects or they didn't preserve well. I think they are there, and more can be found with added focus.

I agree with you. The collectors at Piesberg, which was actually in the neighborhood of St.Clair at the time of deposition, have been aware of this for many years and have come up with quite a collection of insect remnants. Another thing they are always on the lookout for are the ancient horseshoe crabs which pop up from time to time, but you really need to keep your eyes open.

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://steurh.home.xs4all.nl/dieren/euprpb2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://steurh.home.xs4all.nl/engdier/eeuprpb.html&h=405&w=680&tbnid=YzstUt9Hn58PsM:&zoom=1&tbnh=90&tbnw=151&usg=__YFdtUB6s3dtszKWytpXEbEUr-AY=&docid=PO75WT01tChNqM&sa=X&ei=1HP1VI33OcadPdbkgPAN&ved=0CC0Q9QEwAg

It wouldn't surprise me if they turn up at St.Clair as well.

[Stocksdale]

There's a lot yet to be discovered and known.

[siteseer]

Insects were very diverse in the Carboniferous but it is possible that many groups didn't bear the type of hardened exoskeleton of many modern insects. Few of the groups of that time still live today. Spiders don't have a great fossil record and that seems to be because they remained rather soft-bodied across their history. Most sediments that preserved Carboniferous plant parts may not have been fine enough to capture a print of an insect body of the time. One time in the 90's, someone found what appeared to be an onychophoran (and they are soft-bodied) on a St. Clair fern plate at one of the Tucson shows. I think it was going to be sent for study in Germany but I haven't heard if the identification was wrong (just an interesting-looking blob) or if it was written up.

Carboniferous collectors are beginning to realize that there is hidden fossil insect gold in their finds - including specimens already collected. We have insect signs in our collection but no body parts so far...important to stay vigilant since the insect parts may be on pieces that would normally be discarded or overlooked because most of us are looking for well articulated large plant sections and the insect parts could be on any size or shape piece of shale, very random. Tough to target searches for insect in carboniferous strata but we should all be more attentive to the possibility of insects amond the ferns. I've always wondered why we don't see more insect signs in the plant fossils - I don't buy the argument that there weren't many insects or they didn't preserve well. I think they are there, and more can be found with added focus.

[Jeffrey P]

Back in 2013 I met a commercial collector and Kerry Matt at my first time at St. Clair. She reported she found a complete dragonfly there the month before and

sold it and both claimed to have found cockroaches. Tom Buckley, from the Forum found a dragonfly nymph at Carbondale, PA last summer (It was FOTM) which is the same formation as St. Clair. From these reports I gather insect fossils at St. Clair are extremely rare and easily overlooked, but all fossil material from thereshould be carefully looked over. You never know. What about an amphibian?