AWT Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Hi Everyone, I'm new here and relatively new to fossil collecting. Today I bought this Moroccan Mosasaur jaw in matrix and I am 99% sure it is fake. I was hoping to get the groups opinion on its authenticity or lack thereof. Please refer to the included pictures. Thanks for your help! -AWT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterpillar Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Fake, very fake! http://www.paleotheque.fr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down under fossil hunter Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 That's the most fake thing I have seen today, your 99% opinion is 100% correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 The crowns of the teeth are the only real items in those jaws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 These are attractive displays. It is little wonder that they continue to be produced and sold. As Toodon states the crowns are authentic fossil teeth mounted on stained plaster (in my experience) roots and inserted in fabricated jaws. The matrix is consolidated "dirt" held together with a soluble "glue" of some type. You can probably dissolve it completely with a garden hose. If you paid little for it, perhaps the authentic teeth are worth the price. It does make a nice curiosity for display, if you wish to keep it. Lastly, if you are disturbed that it is not the "real thing," perhaps it can be returned. Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWT Posted November 29, 2014 Author Share Posted November 29, 2014 Believe it or not I bought this from a reputable fossil shop that represented it as a 100% real mosasaur jaw that had been repaired. Needless to say I will be returning it as soon as possible. I feel paranoid and now question some of the large trilobites they have in the store. In the end I don't think they knowing sold me a fake, or at least I hope not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Believe it or not I bought this from a reputable fossil shop that represented it as a 100% real mosasaur jaw that had been repaired. Needless to say I will be returning it as soon as possible. I feel paranoid and now question some of the large trilobites they have in the store. In the end I don't think they knowing sold me a fake, or at least I hope not. I guess it could come down to what "repair" means. Well, the absolute resolution of any doubt/debate could be easily determined by the deconstruction of the piece; or in a less destructive action a little additional prep. That is, cutting away "matrix" from a obscured area or breaking away a small piece of "bone" or "root." In this manner it may be determined if something inconsistent with a natural fossilized jaw is present. Of course you would not want to risk modifying the piece and making it not suitable for return. Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWT Posted November 29, 2014 Author Share Posted November 29, 2014 To explain further I was told that this piece was pulled from the ground as seen and that the matrix and position of the jaw fragments and teeth are original and natural. They told me that the only thing added was glue in between the cracks in the bone. I feel dumb and should have questioned it more. Because I found it in a reputable shop that has been in my area for decades my "fake radar" was not turned on. I guess a lesson has been learned here and I will get my money back and be more careful next time. I just hope the store owners did not knowingly sell me a fake. They don't seem like the type of people that would but I will soon find out. I will report back later on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Here's a link with a bunch to compare: LINK "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down under fossil hunter Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Don't feel dumb, many people are fooled by these kinds of fossils that is why they are still made. Even I bought one when I first started out collecting, my radar should have went off when he gave it to me at half price and threw in a bunch of ammonites and trilobites for free. Next thing you think about buying, post some pics up here before you hand over your hard earned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 (edited) Yup, very fake. If you want to do something fun, take it to your local hospital and ask nicely to have it CT scanned. You will be able to see all the different materials used to create this set of jaws. Then take it in to the 'reputable' fossil shop and show them. Edited November 30, 2014 by jpc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 If they are "reputable" they should take it back. If they are "slightly reputable", you will probably see it back in the sales window with the same claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostyoceras Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Any "reputable" dealer would know that it was a fake right from the get go and not have bought it to re-sell anyway. You have a right to your money back. It's a lazy man that can't find his wife a second job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Don't feel dumb, many people are fooled by these kinds of fossils that is why they are still made. Many of these types of "fossils" are replicas intended for good use. It sure is more interesting to see the teeth in a beautiful mount like this than to just have the teeth by themselves (in my opinion). It's just the matter that they were passed off as something they were not, is the problem. Otherwise, an attractive display. There are some companies that make some very good replicas for decoration and educational purposes. Search "fossil replicas" in google. Unfortunately I've seen them sold by roadside "dealers" who say "Pssst... buddy, you ever seen one of these? It's a rare dinosaur.". Then they try to get you to believe it is real, without saying it, and they are hoping that you will feel the intrigue of buying this "hot" item at a really big discount. That's an old con game. If they think you are corrupt, then they feel good about taking advantage of you. You have to play along, though, to avoid spoiling the game. questions like "Why is the price so low?" are considered playing off the court and spoils the deal. Never seen it done by a reputable store dealer, just roadside blanket "dealers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWT Posted November 30, 2014 Author Share Posted November 30, 2014 Any "reputable" dealer would know that it was a fake right from the get go and not have bought it to re-sell anyway. You have a right to your money back. This is one of the things that bothers me. He must know that it is a forgery but he still sold it to me as a genuine piece for a genuine price. He just does not seem like the type of person or shop that would do this. I am hoping this is just a mutual lapse in judgement. I am attempting to return it today. I will report back how it went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rejd Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 A fossil hunter needs sharp eyes and a keen search image, a mental template that subconsciously evaluates everything he sees in his search for telltale clues. -Richard E. Leakey http://prehistoricalberta.lefora.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down under fossil hunter Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Many of these types of "fossils" are replicas intended for good use. It sure is more interesting to see the teeth in a beautiful mount like this than to just have the teeth by themselves (in my opinion). It's just the matter that they were passed off as something they were not, is the problem. Otherwise, an attractive display. There are some companies that make some very good replicas for decoration and educational purposes. Search "fossil replicas" in google. Unfortunately I've seen them sold by roadside "dealers" who say "Pssst... buddy, you ever seen one of these? It's a rare dinosaur.". Then they try to get you to believe it is real, without saying it, and they are hoping that you will feel the intrigue of buying this "hot" item at a really big discount. That's an old con game. If they think you are corrupt, then they feel good about taking advantage of you. You have to play along, though, to avoid spoiling the game. questions like "Why is the price so low?" are considered playing off the court and spoils the deal. Never seen it done by a reputable store dealer, just roadside blanket "dealers". These pieces are not replicas, they are at best pieces of art. I would disagree that there is more appeal in a piece like this than in just having the teeth (at least the teeth are real). some of these sell for hundreds of dollars and I am yet to see one correctly labeled at a fossil show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWT Posted November 30, 2014 Author Share Posted November 30, 2014 Well, I got my money back but I still feel betrayed. This “reputable” fossil shop is looking more and more like a den of scam artists. As soon as I handed the piece back to them they shoved it back into the display case so that another inexperienced sucker could buy it. Throughout the return process the owners acted very sketchy and like I had caught them in the middle of a lie. I was very nice but brought in some literature and pictures and explained to them that the only real parts were the tooth crowns. They acted mad and appalled I would suggest such a thing. They tried to assure me that they had not done anything wrong and had not misrepresented the piece. This is completely false because when I bought it I asked directly “Is this 99% real and as it was found in the ground. Is the only non-real part the glue in the bone cracks?” Their answers were “yes” and “yes”! Now that I have gotten my money back I might as well confess that I paid $645 for it. The price alone is a giant lie. Now that I know better I think it is only worth about $50. I just feel so sad that this 30+ year-old shop would sink so low. I am changing my original reputable assessment to beware! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rejd Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 I am glad it turned out well for you in the end. It is a good lesson which didn't end up costing you any money. It is too bad the seller ended up not being as reputable as you thought. Time to look elsewhere for purchases. thanks for sharing your experience with us. A fossil hunter needs sharp eyes and a keen search image, a mental template that subconsciously evaluates everything he sees in his search for telltale clues. -Richard E. Leakey http://prehistoricalberta.lefora.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 The shop keeper must have been mighty embarrassed, either for being called out, or for having been had himself by whomever he got the piece from. Which, we cannot know, but we know that you averted being the bag-holdee. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 Nice job returning it and a great example how this forum can help inexperienced collectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldigger Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 Yes, I am glad you got your refund, but saddened to hear that they just turned around and put it back out for resale. I have seen quite a few of these on the market. many are made with real teeth grouted to a "jaw" which is usually cow bone all cemented into a jaw like orientation. They are popular, but should always be labeled as a fabricated display piece. I sell fossils online and always make sure the buyer is aware of any repairs or replicated parts. It sounds like your dealer is unscrupulous with trying to deceive his buyers. Is it the same owner that had the shop for the past thirty years? If it changed hands or was pasted down to a family member, the original owner may have been an honest Joe, but the one running it now seems to be a real shyster. You might want to have those other "fossils" you got from there looked at as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWT Posted December 1, 2014 Author Share Posted December 1, 2014 Is it the same owner that had the shop for the past thirty years? Yes. The shop has been owned by the same person since it opened. The whole thing just does not add up. The store has a 5 star Yelp rating, nice and seemingly knowledgeable owners, and a very impressive looking store. So why would they sell me a fossil for $640 while fully knowing that it is a fake worth $50? It does not make sense. I also bought a large trilobite and a mosasaur tooth from this store years ago that were represented as 100% real. I am looking at them suspiciously now and concluding that the mosasaur tooth is fake and the trilobite is a maybe. I forgot to add earlier that I had called the shop in advance to tell them I was bringing the "mosasaur jaws" back. So, the owner knew I was coming back and why. When I arrived I started talking to someone other than the main owner. Then, I saw the owner come out of a side room, look me in the eyes with the deer in the headlights look, and then dart to the backroom never to be seen again. He acted like he had been caught and didn't want to get involved. He had been very friendly during my previous visit when he was describing the merits of the mosasaur jaws, but now wants nothing to do with me. This whole thing has been a weird learning experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 Well, I got my money back but I still feel betrayed. This “reputable” fossil shop is looking more and more like a den of scam artists. As soon as I handed the piece back to them they shoved it back into the display case so that another inexperienced sucker could buy it. Throughout the return process the owners acted very sketchy and like I had caught them in the middle of a lie. I was very nice but brought in some literature and pictures and explained to them that the only real parts were the tooth crowns. They acted mad and appalled I would suggest such a thing. They tried to assure me that they had not done anything wrong and had not misrepresented the piece. This is completely false because when I bought it I asked directly “Is this 99% real and as it was found in the ground. Is the only non-real part the glue in the bone cracks?” Their answers were “yes” and “yes”! Now that I have gotten my money back I might as well confess that I paid $645 for it. The price alone is a giant lie. Now that I know better I think it is only worth about $50. I just feel so sad that this 30+ year-old shop would sink so low. I am changing my original reputable assessment to beware! I am sorry you had a bad experience. In addition to not having a fossil you thought was cool, you lost faith in a local source you felt was trustworthy. In my mind that's almost as unfortunate as a spurious piece. On a positive note I applaud your intellectual curiosity and your willingness to endure an unpleasant exchange to set things right. Many folks are full of false bravado when talking of settling a dispute; but are timid when it comes time to confront the problem. It is hoped you will use this Forum to uncover more reputable sources of the fossils you seek. As a start look at the for sale, trade and auction topics. It is my belief that you will never find an unauthentic fossil offered. Unfortunately, you will not find a Mosasaur jaw. Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWT Posted December 1, 2014 Author Share Posted December 1, 2014 I compare this experience to finding out Santa Claus is not real all over again. I am not upset by the fake fossil, but by the betrayal of a group of people I was beginning to trust. I was taken advantage of and no one likes that feeling. I appreciate everyones help and support here and I will definitely check out the sale, trade, and auction topics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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