Drjohn71a Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 This item was found inside grey clay just above hard, red shale, just East of Harper, KS in Harper County. The area is mapped as a junction between "Red Hills - Permian" and "Wellington-Mc Pherson Lowlands - Pleistocene." The clay surface was 12 feet below the general land surface in a creek cut with running water. The bone is very hard and heavy and "tinks" like a rock upon tapping with metal. Almost no response from a sensitive metal detector... Maybe none. A Mammoth tooth was found about 70 yards down stream in years past. Bison teeth, Horse teeth, deer teeth and bones of such are common. One large black shark tooth found about 200 yards upstream that had been shaped into a tool, but it may have been carried by Indians since stone scrapers, awls and knives have been found. I would appreciate any thoughts. The unique scalloped marrow area puzzles me, but could be the circulation feed to a horn. There is a very straight longitudinal cleavage line which could reflect man remodeling by splitting in half or such. Seems odd that'd happen accidentally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CH4ShotCaller Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 This is way out of my comfort zone, but this looks like part of an antler or horn. Like a ram. I am certainly curious. Nice find. Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new. -Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izak_ Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 Wow, tough one I can't help… Sorry about that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike from North Queensland Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 Not my area and possibly way off, but I think mammoth tooth may be the clue. As the bone fragment looks like bone that's grown against a corrugated surface. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 Not my area and possibly way off, but I think mammoth tooth may be the clue. As the bone fragment looks like bone that's grown against a corrugated surface. Mike I'm inclined to agree that it looks like a mammoth maxilla fragment. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 DrJohn - I agree with the mammoth jaw fragment. Very cool! I grew up near you....check your pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drjohn71a Posted December 6, 2014 Author Share Posted December 6, 2014 Thanx, guys... My mind sees a fit, somehow to the Mammoth jaw, but the undulations and arc don't fit the whole nor partial Mammoth Molar I've found. I think I have a complete "juvenile" Mammoth tooth in that it's larger than what I've seen posted as "Baby Mammoth" teeth, yet smaller than what's been posted as "Adult Mammoth Tooth". That scalloped area just seems so obvious a clue, but to what? It is similar in color to the matrix of my Mammoth tooth, though... Also, it came from the same clay layer as did the Mammoth Tooth. Thanks again, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drjohn71a Posted December 6, 2014 Author Share Posted December 6, 2014 To help clarify this Mammoth Jaw fit... Are the scalloped areas the lateral walls of the tooth socket? Do you have any photos showing what a Mammoth maxilla looks like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drjohn71a Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 OK. Never mind. I Googled Mammoth Jaw and there it is, clear as day in the first photos that pop up! Thanks so much for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drjohn71a Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 Looks like this is the palatal wall of the upper left molar and the cleavage line would seem natural to the jaw shape's weak force vector. My current Mammoth tooth and piece do not fit since they are Lower Molars, of differing arc shape compared to the Upper Molars. As such, I need to be searching for one or both Upper Molars over the next few years. Thanks again for the ID! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I don't think that object has anything to do with mammoth. For starters, a mammoth tooth in the jaw will be covered by a smooth wrapper of cementum. A mammoth tooth alveolus would not have such a pattern. Keep searching for the correct ID. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drjohn71a Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 Thanks for the note, Harry. I got excited upon seeing a photo of the upper mammoth jaw in which the palatal contour ( the overall arc form with an interruption) seems to match the uneven arc form of my bone... I think of cementum in humans as a fairly thin layer of soft material from somewhat weak cells, unless exhibiting "cementoma", which can easily be disturbed, even in life. I guess what you are saying is that, as in humans, there should be a fairly smooth lamina dura (thin cortical bone layer) lining the socket? As a dentist, that is why that rough marrow appearance of the scalloped area did not look like the inside of a tooth socket to me. However, I know little about what a mammoth tooth socket lining looked like in life and even less about its appearance after the ravages of time. I wonder if there exists a good photo of the interior lining of a mammoth molar socket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I'm seeing large mammal lower jaw fragment. Seems small for a mammoth, and the grooves don't look quite right, and are too curved. But I can't imagine what else it could be at that size. You might want to check against a lower jaw of a Glyptotherium. The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I don't think this is any part of a mammoth. It is not a Native American artifact. The "man remodeling" you refer to appears to be the wall of a mandibular symphysis. It's not a gomphothere piece, since they have relatively simple roots (like mastodons). I'm not convinced that this is Pleistocene in age. I will go out to storage tomorrow afternoon to see if I have some mammoth jaw scraps. I will post some images to disabuse you of the mammoth idea. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drjohn71a Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 I have a mastodon tooth from the Clinton Lake, KS area, so am aware of its more human- like roots. Thx for your trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustPlainPetrified Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Nice find though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drjohn71a Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 I am wondering if the strong horizontal eruption process of these molars might preclude formation of a hard lamina dura layer against the undulating root. Maybe the coarseness of the scalloped areas reflects the high level of circulation and remodeling required to move these large, heavily loaded teeth forward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 How I hate the taste of crow! It turns out that there are flutes on the inside wall of my mammoth alveolus. They don't have a strong resemblance to Drjohn's object, but they're there. The mystery object flutes seem to radiate from some central point, while the mammoth flutes are parallel. The Permian of Kansas has a number of large creatures, no doubt with exotic tooth arrangements. That still seem to me to be the more likely origin of this fossil. I think I'd take this object to a Kansas museum for identification. http://www.kgs.ku.edu/Publications/Bulletins/169/Moore/ Skeletal remains of amphibians identified as Cricotus and Eryops have been found in Lower Permian rocks of Cowley County, near the Oklahoma boundary, and bones of the pelycosaur reptile Dimetrodon in approximately equivalent beds just south of the state line (Lane, 1946). Also, Lower Permian strata of Washington County, adjoining Nebraska, have yielded remains of another amphibian named Erpetosuchus (Lane, 1946), and a new genus of trimerorhachoid amphibians named Acroplous has been described from upper Council Grove strata (Speiser Shale) in Riley County, Kansas (Hotton, 1959). http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drjohn71a Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 Thanks, Harry for such detail. I don't know how it is now at KU, but I sent all 3 of my sons there and never got to the university at a time when any of the museums were open to the public. Maybe I should try email. Thanks so much for the address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I'm 100% sure that's part of a mammoth jaw. I helped restore one recently and handled many, many fragments that looked just like that. The Permian of Harper County is pretty barren of fossils. I grew up there and hunted it hard for many years. It's primarily marine, with a few places where you can find some ripple marks. The Pleistocene there is interesting. It hasn't been studied too much. It's mostly been teasing fragments such as Dr. John's. It would be terrific if there was more of this mammoth to be found! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drjohn71a Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 Thanx, Xi... I agree, esp in that the cleavage plane seems to line up with the palatal suture. I googled a pic in which one side had lost this wall along that cleavage line. The clincher for me was that indentation in the arc which exactly matches the palatal side of an upper molar. Also, the further forward the grooves, the more disorganization/wear which matches the horizontal eruption process. The creek barely runs most of the time with a half dozen small springs along the sides which keep green grasslike clumps growing almost year 'round, covering the formations. I spent about five hours down in the creek cut today trying to discern more clearly the source layer. No new finds. There are veins of gravel, fine white sand, hard red shale hardpan, blue grey shale hardpan, red clay, grey clay, brown clay. And they are at different vertical levels as one winds down the creek valley. There are cyclic severe flash flood events which really stir things up, so the Mammoth pieces may have originated far upstream. At this time there are two beaver dams upstream, so not much chance of new "wash downs" unless a 3-4" rain blows out the dams again. I really appreciate the seriousness and dedication of all you experts on this site and the entire dialogue has been exciting as I love looking at and learning about these old things. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I'm inclined to agree that it looks like a mammoth maxilla fragment. I'm 100% sure that's part of a mammoth jaw. I helped restore one recently and handled many, many fragments that looked just like that. The Permian of Harper County is pretty barren of fossils. I grew up there and hunted it hard for many years. It's primarily marine, with a few places where you can find some ripple marks. The Pleistocene there is interesting. It hasn't been studied too much. It's mostly been teasing fragments such as Dr. John's. It would be terrific if there was more of this mammoth to be found! Scott, were the grooves limited to the maxilla or mandible? Or, were they found in both? I've seen and found some mammoth teeth that are curved enough to cause the plates to seem to radiate vs. being parallel. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drjohn71a Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 Here's the thing that has the hair on my neck standing up: Does the sharpness and crisp outline of the scalloping indicate thie piece only recently became disengaged from the tooth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 JohnJ - I worked on a mandible of an old individual from Florida. It was broken into hundreds of pieces, but was all there. Many of the pieces were EXACTLY like the one in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drjohn71a Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 Xi, are you thinking this is from the mandible rather than the maxilla? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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