izak_ Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Hi guys, We have been hunting at Wee Jasper, Nsw Australia. This place has devonian fish (Placoderms) and we are trying to extract the bones quickly! Any ideas apart from vinegar? It is just too slow! Btw the matrix is limestone. And also include where to buy it Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painshill Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 There is really good advice here, including (most importantly) health & safety advice: http://preparation.paleo.amnh.org/42/chemical You will need to find your own sources in Australia for the materials. 1 Roger I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew);Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who [Rudyard Kipling] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Take a deep breath, and take your time, especially when dangerous chemicals are involved! 1 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izak_ Posted December 19, 2014 Author Share Posted December 19, 2014 Ok thanks for your help guys, I am always amazed of now many people have commented already! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Quickly.....! Acid? I always tell my volunteers, It is better to do a good job slowly than a bad job fastly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptychodus04 Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Mechanical preparation is quicker and safer than chemical preparation. Acid should be used for slow and delicate work. Any acid strong enough to quickly dissolve the matrix will also etch the fossils. Regards, Kris Global Paleo Services, LLC https://globalpaleoservices.com http://instagram.com/globalpaleoservices http://instagram.com/kris.howe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiggieCie Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Muriatic acid is usually used for cleaning brick work, concrete, etc. So a good place to look for it would be at a home handyman supply store that sells Cement buy the bag, and other supplies for brick and stone work. They should have Muriatic acid in liter/quart to gallon sizes. It is not expensive but it is strong, follow the safety rules, wear safety glasses; ALWAYS add acid to water. As everyone has said go slow and increase the strength as needed. Also don't pour the solution down your sink drains, over time it will eat your pipes if metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painshill Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 A couple of folks are suggesting muriatic (hydrochloric) acid here. I just draw your attention to the advice on the American Museum of Natural Hiistory link I provided: "...However, some of the chemicals historically used, such as hydrochloric acid, are too damaging and no longer considered appropriate. Hydrochloric acid can be replaced by thioglycollic acid." As is being suggested, chemical prepping with acids is not necessarily a faster process that mechanical prepping... although it may be considerably less tedious. Roger I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew);Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who [Rudyard Kipling] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Why are you "trying to extract the bones quickly!"? As a rule, quickly dissolving the limestone will require a strong or concentrated acid, which will etch the fossils. All the fine structure, thin bones, and surface detail will be destroyed, and you will end up with a half-dissolved lump remaining from only the largest and thickest bones. Extraction of fossil fish, such as the famous fish in nodules from Gogo, is an extremely slow process that requires dissolving a mm or two of rock, rinsing and drying thoroughly, hardening the exposed bone with consolidants, drying thoroughly, then back in the acid to etch the next mm. Prepping this way can take several months or even years, but the result is that the osteology of some Gogo fish is better known that the osteology of many modern fish. So why the extreme rush? Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izak_ Posted December 20, 2014 Author Share Posted December 20, 2014 (edited) Yeah, I will admit I am losing my patience… It's just not strong enough! Well, I got some hydrochloric, I'll see how that goes down lol Thanks for your feedback! Btw, we will water it down, and we have been told to put 10% PVA glue and water to the bone, being hollow will strengthen it Edited December 20, 2014 by izak_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Muriatic acid, hydrchloric acid, mason's acid, stomach acid, or just good ol' HCl, is a tool. It is not appropriate for all, or even most, types of preps. It is the best there is though for removing silic fossil steinkerns from calcium carbonate matrix. The biggest danger are the fumes. They can destroy lung tissue rapidly, so use in a well ventilated area. The other big danger is to your eyes. A splash can permanently blind you. It is not an acid that will immediately burn your skin, but will itch like the dickens to let you know it is there. A better alternative for many instances is acetic acid. It is the acidic portion of vinegar ( vinegar is about 5%) I have used from 10% to 25% solutions to prepare silicic crinoids in limestone matrix. It went fast enough, but not so fast where I couldn't control the rate, and have the specimen separate from the matrix. Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 when you say "water down" the acid, remember what someone else said... and this is not a suggestion, it is a rule... Always Add Acid. So really you will be aciding up your water. Adding acid to water can be dangerous. I cna't rememebr what the danger is but I remember that when Ilooked it up, I weas convinced... Add the acid to the water., not the otherway around. Also, if you can, do this in the backyard, esp if you are going to use the HCl. And do something to keep animals out of the vat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 when you say "water down" the acid, remember what someone else said... and this is not a suggestion, it is a rule... Always Add Acid. So really you will be aciding up your water. Adding acid to water can be dangerous. I cna't rememebr what the danger is but I remember that when Ilooked it up, I weas convinced... Add the acid to the water., not the otherway around. Also, if you can, do this in the backyard, esp if you are going to use the HCl. And do something to keep animals out of the vat. The danger is in the splash. Photographs have shown that what is being poured into is what splashes out. In the words of my Tennessee teacher "Do what you ot-a, add acid to the wa-ta. Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Unless you work with the stronger acids on a regular basis in a lab environment, you should not use them to dissolve matrix period. You obviously don't understand the dangers involved. Plus you most likely will destroy your specimen. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Yeah, I will admit I am losing my patience… It's just not strong enough! Well, I got some hydrochloric, I'll see how that goes down lol Thanks for your feedback! Btw, we will water it down, and we have been told to put 10% PVA glue and water to the bone, being hollow will strengthen it You should post some photos of your fossil before you start and after you've...experimented. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taogan Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Using acid to dissolve bone out of matrix is not for the impatient, last time I did it it took two years. I did once try an experiment to get things moving quicker and ended up with a specimen that was so fragile it couldn't be handled. Luckily it wasn't anything important, but it taught me to have patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 (edited) Disclaimer 1: When I make suggestions about using acids, I assume all safety measures are known and observed. And what if your assumption isn't correct? From this poster's question, it is pretty clear that he is not familiar with using stronger acids. Do you know how many TFF posts come up in Google searches? Do you want a 12 year old taking your advice to use HCL to dissolve limestone? Marco Sr. Edit: check out the below Google search for "dissolving limestone". This post is already on the first Google search page. https://www.google.com/search?q=hcl&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=dissolving+limestone Edited December 20, 2014 by MarcoSr "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooth_claw Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Yeah, I will admit I am losing my patience… Preparing fossils is all about patience and discipline. There is no 'Fast' way to prep, shortcuts don't generally work. Months of weak acid is much better than disfigured specimens. I have 'etched' a few specimens whilst learning to acid prep and it leaves a bad feeling- no fossil to display, just a reminder of how I did it wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izak_ Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 Well, just so you guys know, this bone is not technically 'fossilised'. Apparently it is the real bone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Well, just so you guys know, this bone is not technically 'fossilised'. Apparently it is the real bone. Unaltered Devonian fish bone? What do you mean by "not technically 'fossilised'"? "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Unaltered Devonian fish bone? What do you mean by "not technically 'fossilised'"? unaltered fossil bone will dissolve in acid. But, yeah, I'm with auspex. Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izak_ Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 Unaltered Devonian fish bone? What do you mean by "not technically 'fossilised'"? Well, says 'Dr Gavin Young', who studies placoderms… That is just what we were told. apparently the limestone protected the bone and did not fossilise… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painshill Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 (edited) Well, says 'Dr Gavin Young', who studies placoderms… That is just what we were told. apparently the limestone protected the bone and did not fossilise… I believe that’s a misinterpretation of what Dr Young may have said. These bones were originally composed of calcium phosphate mineral crystals in a matrix of organic collagen or cartilage (in some cases, it’s not true bone). The sediments in which they were deposited were generally phosphate-rich and the collagen/cartilage has been replaced by apatite (calcium phosphate)… generally by bacterially mediated phosphatisation. The original calcium phosphate portions of the bone will also have been diagenetically altered, including some conversion to fluorapatite. Generally, the end result is the formation of globular apatite micro-structures which faithfully preserve the original bone structure, but the bone itself is not original and most certainly is fossilized in a mineral replacement sense. I noted in one of Dr Young’s publications (albeit referring to Queensland specimens) that he wrote: “Acetic acid preparation, which completely removes bones (calcium phosphate) from limestone (calcium carbonate), revealed a small collection of six placoderm specimens from the ten original samples.” I’m sure that he did not intend to imply that the bones were original or unfossilised… he was just making a mineralogical distinction between the relative acid resistance of the fossil bones versus the matrix that surrounds them. Edited December 23, 2014 by painshill Roger I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew);Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who [Rudyard Kipling] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmoceras Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Inexperience + strong acid + speed ---> disaster! Sounds a bit fishy to me, if you’ll pardon the pun. Take it easy; I have worked a bit with fairly strong acids and it’s not the kind of thing you want to “add a bit of this and that to see what happens”. It sounds like you have some very nice specimens and I think it would be unwise to rush into things. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sd-palaeo Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Hi Dinoboy, I have been using dilute acetic acid (15% glacial acetic) for years to extract vertebrate microfossils from the Permian limestone here in W.A.. The residue can then be screened and sorted.The techs at the Western Australian Museum use it to remove the beautiful, 3D preserved Devonian placoderms from the hard limestone nodules from the Gogo Formation in the Kimberley. Try experimenting with dilution and temperature to see what the results are like with your specimens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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