njfossilhunter Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) While I had my wet saw out I cut open a shark copalite lenthwise and seen something I never seen before,,,,that there are other pellets inside ,,,like one of those Russian wood dolls....what do you see or can tell us ....I will cut others open and post them on this thread.,,,,Or if you have a Copalite that you would like to show us ,,,Please do. I'm hoping to find other organic material such as bone or teeth. Edited March 22, 2015 by njfossilhunter TonyThe Brooks Are Like A Box Of Chocolates,,,, You Never Know What You'll Find. I Told You I Don't Have Alzheimer's.....I Have Sometimers. Some Times I Remember And Some Times I Forget.... I Mostly Forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 That is real, real interesting! I have to assume that the variegations trace constrictions in the gut tract. Keep this stuff coming! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lissa318 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Very cool!!! There are some surprisingly beautiful coprolite slabs out there.... Can't wait to see what else you find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njfossilhunter Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 Here is another one. I have to tell you that these things are a lot harder to cut then I thought they would be,,,they keep fragmenting. This one I cut the other way....I found this one already broken in half TonyThe Brooks Are Like A Box Of Chocolates,,,, You Never Know What You'll Find. I Told You I Don't Have Alzheimer's.....I Have Sometimers. Some Times I Remember And Some Times I Forget.... I Mostly Forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njfossilhunter Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 Here is another one cut longwise same as the first one I posted,,,,,Now the individual pellet came loose after it was cut I'm showing you the outer position of the inner pellet thats on the left side,,,,,And the second pic is when its back together. TonyThe Brooks Are Like A Box Of Chocolates,,,, You Never Know What You'll Find. I Told You I Don't Have Alzheimer's.....I Have Sometimers. Some Times I Remember And Some Times I Forget.... I Mostly Forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njfossilhunter Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 Very cool!!! There are some surprisingly beautiful coprolite slabs out there.... Can't wait to see what else you find! Thank you Lisa.... I want to pick up something to polish them,,,, they might reveal more detail on what's might be in them. TonyThe Brooks Are Like A Box Of Chocolates,,,, You Never Know What You'll Find. I Told You I Don't Have Alzheimer's.....I Have Sometimers. Some Times I Remember And Some Times I Forget.... I Mostly Forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Very cool indeed. I would love to see them polished as well. Not surprised about them being difficult to cut. I have had quite a few shatter while digging them out. ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 NIce... do you stabilize them before cutting? Soak them in vinac for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Could you draw a dotted line across the intact specimens to show you where you cut them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Nice cutting job. There are several references that state spiral coprolites are actually fossilized material in the spiral valve and not excreted waste. In other words these are fossilized gut remains from a dead shark or ray. I agree with this view. I've never understood how material would go through the spiral valve and then pass through a small opening into the straight part of the intestine, then through another small hole where it is excreted and somehow revert to the spiral shape that it had while in the spiral valve. Here is a picture I found online illustrating the spiral valve and intestine: Here is a cross section through a modern spiral valve with the NJ coprolite as a comparison: Modern shark tend to have somewhat liquid waste as it leaves the body, not likely to retain a spiral shape: 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squali Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Thanks for the post and a nicely cut coprolite. Very interesting cross section. I have also had a hard time believing the spiral shaped coprolites were excreted in that shape. I have never seen it with modern sharks. Have you looked at it under magnification? I have recently found some fish vert's in the 1-2mm range. They were in matrix though, not a coprolite. It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njfossilhunter Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 NIce... do you stabilize them before cutting? Soak them in vinac for example. No I didn't do anything to them....But since I got some new Paleo Bond last week I'm going to try it on the next one...Thanks for the idea. Could you draw a dotted line across the intact specimens to show you where you cut them? I will the next time I cut open another. Nice cutting job. There are several references that state spiral coprolites are actually fossilized material in the spiral valve and not excreted waste. In other words these are fossilized gut remains from a dead shark or ray. I agree with this view. I've never understood how material would go through the spiral valve and then pass through a small opening into the straight part of the intestine, then through another small hole where it is excreted and somehow revert to the spiral shape that it had while in the spiral valve. Here is a picture I found online illustrating the spiral valve and intestine: sharkintestine.JPG Here is a cross section through a modern spiral valve with the NJ coprolite as a comparison: combined.jpg Modern shark tend to have somewhat liquid waste as it leaves the body, not likely to retain a spiral shape: mess.JPG Thank you,,,It was not easy.... After reading your post and looking at the spiral cut ,,,does it make sense that the digested food would take the shape of ribbon and roll it self in a spiral cone shape as it exit to the bottom of the spiral value then compressing its self to the shape we find them. As far as shark having a liquid waste ,,,maybe the sharks back then are more prone to be constipated ,,this is all guess work on my part. TonyThe Brooks Are Like A Box Of Chocolates,,,, You Never Know What You'll Find. I Told You I Don't Have Alzheimer's.....I Have Sometimers. Some Times I Remember And Some Times I Forget.... I Mostly Forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njfossilhunter Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 Thanks for the post and a nicely cut coprolite. Very interesting cross section. I have also had a hard time believing the spiral shaped coprolites were excreted in that shape. I have never seen it with modern sharks. Have you looked at it under magnification? I have recently found some fish vert's in the 1-2mm range. They were in matrix though, not a coprolite. Thank you Squali. I tried looking at them with my dino-lite which what I used to take the pic's but when I used the DL to look more closer it didn't reveal much more then if I blew up the pic,,,I think the only way to see more detail if I were to polish them. I'm hoping to find some kind of organic matter in one ,,I'm looking at something I found in one,,not sure what it maybe but when I take of the DLite later I will post any pic I come up with. TonyThe Brooks Are Like A Box Of Chocolates,,,, You Never Know What You'll Find. I Told You I Don't Have Alzheimer's.....I Have Sometimers. Some Times I Remember And Some Times I Forget.... I Mostly Forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njfossilhunter Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) I think I found something in one of the coprolites,,,Not sure what it might be ,,but i'm open for suggestions. The inclusion is on the most outer part of the coprolite and may have been exposed to the outside elements before cutting. It appears to have what looks like a dark boney matter or something around it. This is coprolite in question Here are some close ups. Another one. Edited March 23, 2015 by njfossilhunter TonyThe Brooks Are Like A Box Of Chocolates,,,, You Never Know What You'll Find. I Told You I Don't Have Alzheimer's.....I Have Sometimers. Some Times I Remember And Some Times I Forget.... I Mostly Forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 That sure does look like a shard of bone! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagurus Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I have necessary work to do this afternoon but I've spent the last hour perusing the internet for articles regarding shark excrement. Thanks a lot. No, really. Start the day with a smile and get it over with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njfossilhunter Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 That sure does look like a shard of bone! Im thinking it might be a piece cross section view of rib from a fish... TonyThe Brooks Are Like A Box Of Chocolates,,,, You Never Know What You'll Find. I Told You I Don't Have Alzheimer's.....I Have Sometimers. Some Times I Remember And Some Times I Forget.... I Mostly Forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njfossilhunter Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 I have necessary work to do this afternoon but I've spent the last hour perusing the internet for articles regarding shark excrement. Thanks a lot. No, really. Your welcome ..I don't mean to take up your valuable time,,,but I'm interested in seeing what you found. TonyThe Brooks Are Like A Box Of Chocolates,,,, You Never Know What You'll Find. I Told You I Don't Have Alzheimer's.....I Have Sometimers. Some Times I Remember And Some Times I Forget.... I Mostly Forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njfossilhunter Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 Here what I believe to be a piece of a shell,,,,its hard to see any detail because of the light in Dino-lite obscures the details but under a 10x and 17x loop you can tell its a piece of shell material TonyThe Brooks Are Like A Box Of Chocolates,,,, You Never Know What You'll Find. I Told You I Don't Have Alzheimer's.....I Have Sometimers. Some Times I Remember And Some Times I Forget.... I Mostly Forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Nice stuff there, Tony. Classic spiral coprolite internal morphology. And I have to agree with Al Dente that the arguments for these being cololites is a bit stronger than for them being true coprolites. And do try to polish them - Big Brook coprolites (I can't help calling them that...) take on a mean shine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njfossilhunter Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 Nice stuff there, Tony. Classic spiral coprolite internal morphology. And I have to agree with Al Dente that the arguments for these being cololites is a bit stronger than for them being true coprolites. And do try to polish them - Big Brook coprolites (I can't help calling them that...) take on a mean shine! Thanks Carl I will try polishing them as soon as I find something to polish them with. TonyThe Brooks Are Like A Box Of Chocolates,,,, You Never Know What You'll Find. I Told You I Don't Have Alzheimer's.....I Have Sometimers. Some Times I Remember And Some Times I Forget.... I Mostly Forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagurus Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Your welcome ..I don't mean to take up your valuable time,,,but I'm interested in seeing what you found. Well, I tried to find some images of modern shark feces (sounds like a fun afternoon, doesn't it?), but I didn't have much success. There was one you-tube video, but I'm not sure if I trust it. I did learn more about the digestive systems of elasmobranchs and that made it an interesting educational experience. I found some research into the efficiency of nutrient absorption, which included the analysis of lemon shark feces (Negaprion brevirostris), but no photos or detailed descriptions of the feces themselves. They were centrifuged and dried before analysis so there must have been a significant amount of solids. They were picked up with a baster. It does seem that in most cases sharks' excrement is mostly liquid. I had always just assumed that shark "coprolites" were like other coprolites, but this thread that you started with your terrific slabs has definitely changed my mind. I have no expertise whatsoever on the subject, though. I'm just an eager learner. Start the day with a smile and get it over with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 This whole topic kinda' came out of left-field, and I am enjoying it immensely! There are details being brought to light that are pretty interesting. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njfossilhunter Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) Well, I tried to find some images of modern shark feces (sounds like a fun afternoon, doesn't it?), but I didn't have much success. There was one you-tube video, but I'm not sure if I trust it. I did learn more about the digestive systems of elasmobranchs and that made it an interesting educational experience. I found some research into the efficiency of nutrient absorption, which included the analysis of lemon shark feces (Negaprion brevirostris), but no photos or detailed descriptions of the feces themselves. They were centrifuged and dried before analysis so there must have been a significant amount of solids. They were picked up with a baster. It does seem that in most cases sharks' excrement is mostly liquid. I had always just assumed that shark "coprolites" were like other coprolites, but this thread that you started with your terrific slabs has definitely changed my mind. I have no expertise whatsoever on the subject, though. I'm just an eager learner. I'm very happy that you have enjoyed my thread and that you had a interesting day with the research you did on this subject.I have learned some cool things I didn't know before thanks to you and other members here and it was a fun afternoon,,, This whole topic kinda' came out of left-field, and I am enjoying it immensely! There are details being brought to light that are pretty interesting. I happy you also enjoyed this thread and yes this topic did come out of left field ,,,well sort of ...I have been wanting to cut open some of my coprolites for some time now but just never got around to it...Or should I call them Cololites as Carl mentioned in a earler post since they believe that they are formed and fossilized inside of a dead shark...something I would have never guess at. I will cut open others but first i'm going to use some paleobond on them to help keep them from coming apart while cutting. Edited March 24, 2015 by njfossilhunter TonyThe Brooks Are Like A Box Of Chocolates,,,, You Never Know What You'll Find. I Told You I Don't Have Alzheimer's.....I Have Sometimers. Some Times I Remember And Some Times I Forget.... I Mostly Forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 question. has anyone seen spiral gutted fish "coprolites" from the Moroccan phosphates? ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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