Chamfer Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 (edited) I recently collected some fossils in an outcropping of very weak shale in Shelby county, Alabama. Lots of tiny little leaves in it, most well under 2 cm. I've had some help on a Facebook group with identification - In the attached photo, item A is probably neuropteris, and B & C are cyclopteris orbicularis (feel free to correct these if they're wrong). My big question is, what is item D? It's about 12 mm long. To me, it looks like an insect wing, but that seems unlikely to me. Can anyone provide an ID? Much appreciated. Edited April 6, 2015 by Chamfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Looks like an insect wing to me as well. Hopefully someone with more insect experience will weigh in. Regards, Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesuslover340 Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 I'd second the insect wing idea-possibly a dragonfly's? "Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another."-Romans 14:19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCFossils Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Congratulations! Definitely an insect wing. Probably some type of Palaeodictyopteran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 I don't know, folks. I am seeing a leaf there. I certainly see how it closely resembles an insect wing but there is something more botanical in the wavy nature of the veins and the carbonaceous preservation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 (edited) I have rotated the view, and cropped the photo. I still think this looks like an insect wing to me. Regards, LINK to an earlier thread on insect wings. Edited April 6, 2015 by Fossildude19 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Congratulations on your extraordinary find! The whole assembly is so rich and well defined; just a wonderful plate I see Carl's hesitancy; it does not appear that there are any closed 'cells' between the veins. My experience with Carboniferous insect wings is, however, minuscule. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 (edited) Not convinced. Could someone point out the costa and subcosta for me? Also, like Auspex said, where are the cross-veins? On the bright side, I would be equally uncertain to call this a pinnule of some sort. Interesting specimen! Edited April 6, 2015 by paleoflor 1 Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamfer Posted April 6, 2015 Author Share Posted April 6, 2015 The lack of cross-veins is what gave me doubts. But when I looked at various online images, I did see some fossilized insect wings that didn't have cross-veins, so that's not definitive. Costa and subcosta, new terms for me. And I agree there isn't any structure that definitively is a costa or subcosta, though there is some hint of such, especially along the top third. The whole leading edge where they would appear is also somewhat messy (this is very weak & fragile matrix), so those features could be damaged/obscured. I appreciate everyone's input on this, even if there is no solid consensus. Obviously I'm going to have to go get another bucket load from the site and go through it meticulously :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 ...I appreciate everyone's input on this, even if there is no solid consensus. Obviously I'm going to have to go get another bucket load from the site and go through it meticulously :-) Verily! Get thee hence! This material is beguiling "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Very cool fossil. I think the veins are too irregular to be an insect wing, my thoughts are plant. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Quite a grouping--nice finds! You got me on what D is and I understand the comments/hesitations. Im not an insect person nor plant expert but have seen a few of the latter...I'm leaning towards insect but.... Here's a plant sample for you that I have from Arkansas....if you look just at the lower half of one of the pinnules (leaflets) in the cropped photo you can see a similarity in the veination to yours.. Hoping someone comes up with something definite for you. Again, nice find--intriguing! Regards, Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bone digger Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Some seed pods have "wings", could it be one of those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Quite a grouping--nice finds! You got me on what D is and I understand the comments/hesitations. Im not an insect person nor plant expert but have seen a few of the latter...I'm leaning towards insect but.... Here's a plant sample for you that I have from Arkansas....if you look just at the lower half of one of the pinnules (leaflets) in the cropped photo you can see a similarity in the veination to yours.. post-2806-0-39024300-1428330410.jpgIMG_2454 cropped.jpgIMG_2465.JPG Hoping someone comes up with something definite for you. Again, nice find--intriguing! Regards, Chris Astute observations Chris! I can totally see now where you all on the plant side are coming from. The more I look at it, the more I agree. I wonder if some of the shale can be removed from the edge of the sample to reveal more pinnule? Thanks for posting. Regards, Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I was thinking along the same lines as Chris. Perhaps the solution is to be found under the matrix or it's a partial. Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I would be the last person to completely discount RCFossil's initial opinion; he knows a thing or two! My personal quest is to understand why it is whatever it is. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamfer Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 I wonder if some of the shale can be removed from the edge of the sample to reveal more pinnule? I took another long look at the fossil last night, and no, I don't think I could remove more from the edge. Keep in mind this specific fossil is only about 12mm long. I simply don't have fine enough tools (or strong enough magnifiers) to attempt it. I did remove some more material from other areas of the sample, which revealed several more leaves, but nothing else resembling the maybe-wing. And I stabbed myself in the finger with a dental pick in the process. That's typical - some part of my subconscious seems to be of the opinion that every project needs a blood sacrifice. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 This is also not so easily identified as a pinnule. Notice the asymmetry at the petiole, which is there even if part of the fossil would still be covered (I doubt it and would not attempt to remove any material from the edge), for the base of the leaf appears free of matrix. In comparison, Chris' examples show rather symmetric pinnules (with respect to their petioles). This near-symmetry is there in most pinnules I am familiar with. Returning to the specimen, the overall shape (assuming it is completely uncovered, which I consider reasonable) is also more wing-like to my eye. If that structure along the top third is indeed a partial (sub)costa, then I would definitely lean towards "insectan". Perhaps it is worth it to contact a palaeoentomologist? Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 It closely resembles a modern maple samara to me. Very cool detail. Ramo For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Stared at this again in better light and after reading everyones comments I now want to bet my tomorrow's lunch money its an insect wing... Tim your logic makes sense...I definitely like your proposal to run it by an paleoinsect expert and I'm hopeful something specific might be gleaned from that . I wont be surprised if Rob probably has already shown us the way..... Cool plate... Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamfer Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) Some news. I sent the photo and locality info to the Curator of Paleontology at the University of Alabama Museums. He agrees that it "certainly does appear to be an insect wing", and has asked me to bring it to the museum for them to check out in person. He stated that if it is indeed a wing, it's an extremely rare find for Alabama. I'll be taking a bunch more photos of it prior to the museum trip. If it is indeed an insect wing, I'll almost certainly be donating the specimen. So, it's all pretty exciting to this relative newbie! And thanks again to all who have replied and discussed the specimen. Addendum: I went through my pile of fragments last night, and found the opposite 'face' of the same fossil. What's that called? Not the obverse... I'm losing more words every year. Edited April 8, 2015 by Chamfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) Bravo on considering donation! That's a great way to start this hobby. As for what the opposite side is called, it's odd the way we use the word. When there are 2 split slabs they tend to be called "part and counterpart" or "slab and counterslab." But which is which you might ask? No one has ever given me a good answer but the closest was "part" is the surface on which the organism laid when it landed on the sediment and "counterpart" is the sediment that covered it. This is not only hard to tell for many fossils, it may not even apply in some cases. Most would call your two pieces "part & counterpart" without distinguishing which is which. Edited April 8, 2015 by Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT. Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Wow, that is some find if it is identified as an insect wing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bone digger Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Would an insect wing really fossilize with that much carbon in it? I am going to stick with part of a seed pod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Would an insect wing really fossilize with that much carbon in it?... Maybe, if it was sandwiched between leaves. The matrix appears to be richly foliate... "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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