heysharkie Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Greetings, I need help identifying this jaw bone. It looks to me like any wolf jaw bone I have seen. However, wolves only recently returned to the region it was found and it appears old.. at least to me. I would like to identify it and to learn how to posatively identify differences between wolf jaw bones and dogs. I'm also interested in any good reference on the subject I might aquire. Thank you for any help!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Coyote, me thinks. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amour 25 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 (edited) Me too I have one and looks the same. https://www.google.com/search?q=Coyote+jaws&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Mb4nVYHsB5TcoASN84DIDQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1680&bih=928#imgrc=_ Might help Edited April 10, 2015 by Jeff L Nolan Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heysharkie Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 It's not coyote. Much heavier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Size measurements are a crucial factor in distinguishing between wolf and other canids. Start off by giving us the dimensions of the carnassial -- length of crown and width. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heysharkie Posted April 12, 2015 Author Share Posted April 12, 2015 Best I can do right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Just eyeballing it with the help of a reference (Gilbert, 1990), I would have to side with those saying coyote. On page 254 there's an illustration of a coyote jaw and then on the facing page there's one of a wolf. The coyote jaw length is given as 152mm (roughly 6 inches) and the wolf jaw length is given as 197mm (roughly 7 3/4 inches). Your jaw looks to be about 166mm (6 1/2 inches) and looks about as deep as the coyote but not as deep as the wolf. You need to put a tape measure (or should it be done with calipers?) right onto the jaw to get precise measurements as noted by Harry and that might make a difference. The measurements in the book are averages and there are going to be individuals larger and smaller but it looks closer to a coyote than a wolf. You might want to look for Nowak (1979) as well. Gilbert, B.M. 1990. Mammalian Osteology. Missouri Archaeological Society, INC. Nowak, R.M. 1979. North American Quaternary Canis. Monograph of the Museum of Natural History, University of Kansas 6:1-154. It's not coyote. Much heavier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heysharkie Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Thank you for the super reply. I'll put a tape measure on it. I have several coyote jaw bones. it's much heavier. I'll go get a calliper too. I apreciate the help. Sorry for the delay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 The heaviness of the jaw doesn't matter. If sediment has filtered into cracks in the bone, the jaw will be heavier whether it's a wolf, coyote, or modern dog. Thank you for the super reply. I'll put a tape measure on it. I have several coyote jaw bones. it's much heavier. I'll go get a calliper too. I apreciate the help. Sorry for the delay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heysharkie Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 Thicker, bigger, longer, heavier.. no comparison. Compared to eastern and western coyote jaw. Will take pics for non believers but it does seem pointless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heysharkie Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 This is compared to a jaw from a very large eastern coyote. Comparison to a small western want even comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heysharkie Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 Better picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 The perspective in these images is misleading. Where are the dimensions of individual teeth -- the carnassial will suffice for a start -- the length and width of the crown in millimeters. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Size ratio comparisons are tricky. Don't get misled just by the size. Your found jaw is actually much more gracile that the coyote in your picture, even though it is larger. The horizontal ramus is relatively less deep throughout; there is a longer diastema between the canine and the p2 (just ignore the p1, which isn't present in your coyote). I would look carefully at some of the domestic dog breeds with elongate mandibles, like salukis, greyhounds, wolfhounds, etc. They tend to have the premolars not as crowded and in a straight line, as does your found jaw. The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heysharkie Posted April 26, 2015 Author Share Posted April 26, 2015 Okay. Bought a 40 dollar calliper. Carnassial is 22mm x 9 mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 That is within the range of the coyote (Canis latrans) and completely outside the range of the wolf (Canis lupus). It is also within the range of domestic dogs, which vary from much smaller than any coyote to as large, or larger, than any wolf. The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heysharkie Posted April 26, 2015 Author Share Posted April 26, 2015 Must be a dog the. Fyi it was found in country Montana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heysharkie Posted April 26, 2015 Author Share Posted April 26, 2015 Probably a greyhound that got lost in the mountains a hundred years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 Not a greyhound, not a hundred years old. It is most likely a coyote, Canis latrans, that died recently (a matter of months, not decades). That is the identification that Occam demands. Rich is correct in assessing the size range of the carnassial; and, if the jaw was found in a remote area, the best identification is coyote. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heysharkie Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 Same size tooth so it must be a coyote.the two aren't even comparable. Wast of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 You're welcome, heysharke. Always glad to try to help a newbie. The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Same size tooth so it must be a coyote.the two aren't even comparable. Wast of time. Not a waste . . . Think of it as a learning experience for some of those who read the thread. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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