gobbler716 Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 (edited) any idea what this one is? Edited May 3, 2015 by gobbler716 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 (edited) Hello,Your picture is too blurry to tell for sure, but it puts me in mind of an Alethopteris pinnule.Clearer picture though, would help narrow it down.Regards, Edited May 3, 2015 by Fossildude19 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Whatever the shape is, it seems to be in very high relief (unusual for plant fossils). Please post a sharp picture, with something for scale and info about its location so we can properly assess it. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilized6s Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Even though you picture is very blurry, i can comfortably say this is a single pinnule of a A. serli. Alethopteris serli often is found preserved in a inflated manner. ~Charlie~ "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK ->Get your Mosasaur print ->How to spot a fake Trilobite ->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler716 Posted May 3, 2015 Author Share Posted May 3, 2015 (edited) I have found them before with hard black "shells" Edited May 3, 2015 by gobbler716 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Alethopteris seems like a good bet. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler716 Posted May 3, 2015 Author Share Posted May 3, 2015 Thanks,! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Even though you picture is very blurry, i can comfortably say this is a single pinnule of a A. serli. Alethopteris serli often is found preserved in a inflated manner. How do you rule out all other species of Alethopteris, without seeing the nervation? You need to know whether the veins are simple or indeed forked, and then whether the veins are narrowly or widely forked. You need to know the vein density, too. The specimen appearing more or less three-dimensional is not a diagnostic feature, in my opinion, as various Alethopteris species occur in such a preservation (in fact, I have a couple specimens just like that). Were it not for the very strong mid-vein, it would not even be possible to exclude Lonchopteris (i.e. to identify the specimen on the generic level) on the basis of this blurred picture. While it may very well be A. serlii, personally I'd like to see more evidence. 2 Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilized6s Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 That is true. I was merely giving the discover homework to compare the two, since we may not get a clear picture. For confirmation on our end, WE would definitely need a clear up-close picture. Specimen in-hand he can compare and confirm a lot easier. It would be nice to know if he plans on following up with any of our suggestions. ~Charlie~ "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK ->Get your Mosasaur print ->How to spot a fake Trilobite ->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler716 Posted May 4, 2015 Author Share Posted May 4, 2015 I have been trying to get a better photo of this but can't seem to get what I want. Under a magnifying glass, there seem to be tiny veins coming from the mid vein. The tiny veins run to the end of the "leaf." I appreciate all of your help!BTW, Paleoflor, my father was in Utrecht, during WWII, although American, was under British command. My philosophy prof in the early 1970s is from there. Heinric van Tuyll. He's about to turn 100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler716 Posted May 4, 2015 Author Share Posted May 4, 2015 Here is a photo with a US dime next to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Thanks for the attempt to provide better photographs. Unfortunately, this one also does not show venation. The US dime for scale is very handy though! Like Alethopteris serlii pinnules, it is quite large (~ 30 mm, right?). Are the tiny veins you write about anastomosed (do they form a "network")? If not, do the tiny veins fork or not? If yes, how many times do they fork? Do the tiny veins meet the pinnule margin at an approximately right angle or at a more acute angle? How many veins occur per centimetre of pinnule margin? You will need to look for such characters to identify your specimen to the generic and species level. For Alethopteris, the lateral "tiny" veins are not anastomosed. If they are, compare your specimen with Lonchopteris. If not anastomosed, the tiny veins should meet the pinnule margins at an about right angle. If they meet the pinnule margin at a more acute angle, compare your specimen with Callipteridium (most species have smaller pinnules though...). If they do meet the pinnule margin at an about right angle, you are likely dealing with Alethopteris (assuming the attachment to the rachis was broad, which is not certain). In Alethopteris serlii, the lateral veins are forked once or more times, only very rarely simple (not forked). Vein density is normally between 30 and 40 per cm. If your specimen shows different characters, it might belong to another species of Alethopteris. You can find the good identification characters in Buisine 1961 and Wagner 1968. Coincidentally, today is Dutch Remembrance Day, the day we commemorate the victims of WWII (and all subsequent wars). It will be Dutch Liberation Day tomorrow, the day we celebrate our liberation - thanks to people like your father. Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler716 Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) One photo under Lonchopteris looked just like this imprint. Small veins go all the way to the end without forking. I am so new to this that I have to keep going back and back....it is also so very interesting. I appreciate all the clues you have sent me. Edited May 5, 2015 by gobbler716 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [1] [...] One photo under Lonchopteris looked just like this imprint. [...] [2] [...] Small veins go all the way to the end without forking. [...] The above two statements are incompatible, unless the one photo under Lonchopteris you refer to does not depict a Lonchopteris. The venation of Lonchopteris is anastomosed, which means that the veins form a network - they branch out and unite again. If the lateral veins do not fork, like you wrote, then you cannot have anastomosis, right? If the lateral veins are simple (do not fork) then the specimen is probably not Alethopteris serlii. There are not many species of Alethopteris with predominantly simple veins though, and the ones I know of do have an overall pinnule shape that is quite different from your specimen. Are you sure the veins do not fork? Sometimes they do only very close to the midvein (perhaps difficult to see). If the lateral veins are really unforked, then you may perhaps want to broaden your search to include more genera. For example, it could be interesting to compare your find with Neuralethopteris. Pinnules of this genus are somewhat alethopteroid in outline and show a midvein, like your specimen. Again, you will need to look for venation characters for an identification. Note that it is also possible you are simply dealing with a North American species; collecting in Europe, I am unfamiliar with many of those! Hopefully someone else can chime in on those options. Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler716 Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 I am getting so confused, but I really do appreciate all the info. This will be a good reference point when I find some more just like these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) Sorry for the confusion. Hope this may help clarify some things. The images come from Wagner 1968. The first photo (sorry for the poor quality, but my scanner is not working) shows idealised schematics of generalised pinnules for the genera Alethopteris, Lonchopteris, Lonchopteridium, Neuralethopteris and Macralethopteris. If you compare the top three, you will notice the difference between "free veins", which may fork but do not unite again (Alethopteris), and anastomosing "networks" of veins (Lonchopteridium and Lonchopteris). Then, if you look at the fourth image, you will notice that in Neuralethopteris sometimes the base of the pinnules is constricted (not the case for the top three), but is otherwise quite like the first schematic regarding the mid-vein and lateral veins. The second photo shows an idealised schematic for Alethopteris serlii. The majority of the lateral veins fork (see blue arrow) either once or twice. Does the venation of your specimen look like this? Edited May 5, 2015 by paleoflor Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamfer Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I'll just throw this in here to increase the potential confusion You're in central Alabama, and you tagged this post Cahaba. I've found quite a few similarly shaped leaves, even some with the deep 3D shape, in the same area, within a stone's throw of the Cahaba river in south Shelby County. I've been informed that at least some, probably most, of what I've got are neuropteris. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) I'll just throw this in here to increase the potential confusion You're in central Alabama, and you tagged this post Cahaba. I've found quite a few similarly shaped leaves, even some with the deep 3D shape, in the same area, within a stone's throw of the Cahaba river in south Shelby County. I've been informed that at least some, probably most, of what I've got are neuropteris. The specimen has a strong mid-vein, but there is indeed little basis to exclude the neuropterids (Neuralethopteris is a step in that direction). It would also make it easier to imagine abscission of the leaf. Another can of worms just opened... Edited May 5, 2015 by paleoflor Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler716 Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 Indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler716 Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 Thank you all very much!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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