Keichousaurus: Real Or Fake?

[gen]

Hello everyone,

I recently bought this Keichousaurus from a fellow collector. I purchased it based on its beauty alone, with an understanding that there could be some restoration.

Anyway, I have been trying to pick out the areas that have been restored with no conclusive results (except for maybe the finger bones and tail tip), so I have posted some pictures for a second opinion.

It does seem a little too perfect to be real, but still makes a great display piece regardless.

Any input will be greatly appreciated!

Sincerely,

Jay.

Edited June 16, 2015 by gen

[Fossildude19]

You will have to post some better, up close photos for us to be able to give an opinion, I think.

It looks nice, but I cannot tell much from the pictures provided.

Regards,

EDIT:

I did what I could with the pictures, but they just aren't sharp enough to give any clue as to whether it is completely real, or enhanced.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Fossildude19

[snolly50]

It's a great looking, less common, dorsal presentation. It looks fine to me, BUT, as Tim said; it's a tough call without detailed pictures or best, in-hand. The most I can suggest is to view it under a stereozoom scope, painted details (e. g. added digits) will be obvious - flat, not 3-D. Good luck, have fun.

[gen]

Thanks for the feedback! I have uploaded some higher resolution pictures. Hope this helps!

Of particular concern I feel is what appears to be a missing patch of paint on one of the neck vertebrae.

Sincerely,

Jay

Edited June 16, 2015 by gen

[gen]

Yes indeed snolly, at this stage examination at a higher magnification does seem necessary to determine the raised/flat parts.

Thank you for the advice!

[Fossildude19]

Jay,

Thanks for the better pictures.

With these, I can see lots of "Enhancements" going on.

The verts all appear to have been painted over the actual fossil.

The skull looks like it was painted over.

Most if not all of the toe bones are flat=painted.

I would have serious doubts about actual length of the tail.

I have a feeling if all of the ink/paint were removed, you would have a much less complete specimen.

Sorry, but that is usually the way of these Keichosaurs.

Regards,

[gen]

Here are some more pictures. Thank you Tim for helping to enhance them!

[gen]

Alright, I suppose that means the restoration on this piece is fairly extensive.

Still I would say that the person doing the enhancements did a fairly good job!

Thanks for the help.

Sincerely,

Jay

[Fossildude19]

Jay,

It is a nice piece, and they did do a good job,... as long as you are OK with it, and the fact that it has been enhanced, you should keep it in a prominent place and enjoy it.

Happy to help.

Regards,

[oilshale]

If you really want to know what's going on try to get an X-ray (from the local hospital...). Radiologists are curious, the job is boring and quite often they are willing to help. Works fine with Keichousaurs.

Thomas

[LordTrilobite]

Thanks for the feedback! I have uploaded some higher resolution pictures. Hope this helps!

Of particular concern I feel is what appears to be a missing patch of paint on one of the neck vertebrae.

Sincerely,

Jay

First I would like to say that I have I have never held any keichousaurus fossils in my hands. So my experience is limited.

With that being said. I think there are some clear areas that look either real or fake. I would say that the spots, where the prepped lighter matrix is directly adjacent to the bone, are fake. This would make sense if the fossil was prepped, and then the missing parts painted over the prepped stone. That way the non-prepped stone in between the real bones would appear darker.

I edited the pictures a bit to show what I mean. With that in mind. I think that both the ends of the tail and neck+head as well as a few toes are painted on. I think you'd be left with a mostly complete torso with the base of the neck and tail and mostly complete limbs.

Of course, I could be totally wrong about this. So take it with a grain of salt.

[oilshale]

Want to know how they are normally prepped? Here you go:

Don't expect any toes, a complete tail and a perfect neck! Most is real, but some parts will be painted (and these guys are really good at painting)

Thomas

Edited June 16, 2015 by oilshale

[Fossildude19]

Want to know how they are normally prepped? Here you go:

Don't expect any toes, a complete tail and a perfect neck! Most is real, but some parts will be painted (and these guys are really good at painting)

Thomas

Fascinating pictures, Thomas!

Thanks for posting them.

So, they basically just grind the matrix down around the bones, and grind away some of the bones, as well?

Do they ever sell them unprepped?

Regards,

[Carcharodontosaurus]

Want to know how they are normally prepped? Here you go:

preping keichousaur+1.jpg

preping keichousaur+2.jpg

preping keichousaur+3.jpg

preping keichousaur+4.jpg

Don't expect any toes, a complete tail and a perfect neck! Most is real, but some parts will be painted (and these guys are really good at painting)

Thomas

Keichousaur slabs must be ridiculously common finds if most of them are even partially real. I'm amazed. I second Fossildude's question, are they ever sold unprepared?

[oilshale]

Most slabs you can buy at fleamarkets in China are faked or Frankensteins, but there are a couple of dealers where you can get unprepared slabs.

But you have to be careful - these can / will be slabs, which are not easy to prep (and they are not cheaper).

The substrate can go from extremely hard (these slabs can not be mechanically prepared with an air scribe) to very soft and sort of greasy (can be scratched with a finger nail). The bones on the other side are normally quite brittle (and sometimes as soft as the substrate).

I never tried an air blaster on them, but I guess it can be done (unfortunately, my air blaster is mothballed in Germany - no way to try it).

It is possible to prep them with acid, but you have to be very carefull. Not every slab / every Keichousaur works. It's a lengthy process with unpredictable results.

If the slab is soft, the prep job is really bad, I am bored and I have plenty of time, I use the Messel transfer method: Embedd the surface in polyester resin and prep the poor guy from the back. But I wouldn't recommend this unless you are an experienced preparator.

Actually, despite the crude methods they use, these guys do a very good job in prepping Keichousaurs.

Thomas

[snolly50]

Thomas, thanks for the first hand report on the Keichousaurus prepping practices in China. Perhaps you are in a position to address an issue that often arises on the Forum. In regard to any fossil with an origin in China, it is often opined that it has to be "fake" because Chinese law forbids the trade. That is, fabricated material may be sold as it is "art," but true fossils are forbidden. To your knowledge are the workers depicted in your post restrained in any legal way from receiving the raw fossil, prepping it and then reselling for worldwide export? I have seen the assertion, that all fossils must be manufactured fakes, applied to dinosaur eggs and Keichousaurs.

[oilshale]

In China, laws and regulations are quite often negotiable - there is not only black and white.

It is strictly forbidden to export listed fossils. Listed are almost all vertebrates, but only very few plants, echinoderms, molluscs, ammonites, arthropodes are listed (hence legal export should be possible).

You can dig for fossils - doesn't seem to be a problem. Of course restricted / protected areas are off limits for everyone.

Trade is not forbidden. You can buy fossils - no problem as long as the fossil stays in China. Twice a year, there is an official fossil and mineral fair in Shanghai, a smaller one in Beijing and a very big one in Changsha. Ichthyosaurs (up to 3 meters), birds, fish, dinosaurs, eggs, turtles, crocs . You could buy whatever you want. Chinese dealers might even offer to "organize" the (illegal) export via Hongkong.

The situation is different at the flea markets in Beijing and Shanghai - mostly fakes, just a few originals. I guess it is a matter of demand and supply. It is easier (and cheaper) for the dealers to get and to sell fakes - no need to sell the real stuff. Buyers are mostly tourists with little knowledge who want to get a decorative souvenir for their living room.

I personally would not dare to smuggle fossils out of China (not even fakes!). Risk is too high to get caught by customs and Chinese jails are no place to have fun.

Same situation with antiques - trade is not forbidden, only export.

Edited June 17, 2015 by oilshale

[Carcharodontosaurus]

In China, laws and regulations are quite often negotiable - there is not only black and white.

It is strictly forbidden to export listed fossils. Listed are almost all vertebrates, but only very few plants, echinoderms, molluscs, ammonites, arthropodes are listed (hence legal export should be possible).

You can dig for fossils - doesn't seem to be a problem. Of course restricted / protected areas are off limits for everyone.

Trade is not forbidden. You can buy fossils - no problem as long as the fossil stays in China. Twice a year, there is an official fossil and mineral fair in Shanghai, a smaller one in Beijing and a very big one in Changsha. Ichthyosaurs (up to 3 meters), birds, fish, dinosaurs, eggs, turtles, crocs . You could buy whatever you want. Chinese dealers might even offer to "organize" the (illegal) export via Hongkong.

The situation is different at the flea markets in Beijing and Shanghai - mostly fakes, just a few originals. I guess it is a matter of demand and supply. It is easier (and cheaper) for the dealers to get and to sell fakes - no need to sell the real stuff. Buyers are mostly tourists with little knowledge who want to get a decorative souvenir for their living room.

I personally would not dare to smuggle fossils out of China (not even fakes!). Risk is too high to get caught by customs and Chinese jails are no place to have fun.

Same situation with antiques - trade is not forbidden, only export.

You say "almost all" vertebrates are forbidden. Which ones aren't?

[-Andy-]

In China, laws and regulations are quite often negotiable - there is not only black and white.

It is strictly forbidden to export listed fossils. Listed are almost all vertebrates, but only very few plants, echinoderms, molluscs, ammonites, arthropodes are listed (hence legal export should be possible).

You can dig for fossils - doesn't seem to be a problem. Of course restricted / protected areas are off limits for everyone.

Trade is not forbidden. You can buy fossils - no problem as long as the fossil stays in China. Twice a year, there is an official fossil and mineral fair in Shanghai, a smaller one in Beijing and a very big one in Changsha. Ichthyosaurs (up to 3 meters), birds, fish, dinosaurs, eggs, turtles, crocs . You could buy whatever you want. Chinese dealers might even offer to "organize" the (illegal) export via Hongkong.

The situation is different at the flea markets in Beijing and Shanghai - mostly fakes, just a few originals. I guess it is a matter of demand and supply. It is easier (and cheaper) for the dealers to get and to sell fakes - no need to sell the real stuff. Buyers are mostly tourists with little knowledge who want to get a decorative souvenir for their living room.

I personally would not dare to smuggle fossils out of China (not even fakes!). Risk is too high to get caught by customs and Chinese jails are no place to have fun.

Same situation with antiques - trade is not forbidden, only export.

I've heard that if you were to import fossils into China (e.g. Green River or Moroccan ones), you can't export them out again, because there's no way to absolutely prove to the customs your fossils aren't Chinese ones. Is this true?

[oilshale]

You say "almost all" vertebrates are forbidden. Which ones aren't?

Our member YZhang has translated the official list: http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/31860-is-it-illegal-to-buy-fossils-in-china/?hl=%2Bexport+%2Bchina#entry350760

I couldn't find Lycoptera from Liaoning and Jianghanichthys from Hubei on the list.

[oilshale]

I've heard that if you were to import fossils into China (e.g. Green River or Moroccan ones), you can't export them out again, because there's no way to absolutely prove to the customs your fossils aren't Chinese ones. Is this true?

Never tried this. I guess you would need to declare imported fossils - then (at least in theory) it should be possible to export them again. I wouldn't dare this.

Thomas

[Auspex]

Gen, your specimen scores high on beauty; by your own criteria, you did well