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worthy 55

This is what started it all!!!!!!

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worthy 55

I found this while up here on a family fishing trip from Miami in 1969. I was seventeen years old ,and it was the first artifact that I had ever found. You could say I was HOOKED from then on. This is my baby, I call it Big Bird. It's what is called a Great Pipe. It's the only one of it's kind that has been found in Florida, so I have been told. I am trying to get it published, so soon I hope it will be in some books for everyone to see!pipe021.jpg:) :)pipe022.jpg:o :o :) :) :)

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Gatorman

WOW that is amazing, I think i would die if I found that, and I know Cris would.

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emtilt

Wow, that's amazing. Too bad it's no longer possible to collect artifacts in Florida waters.

Did you ever report it to the Florida Bureau of Archaeological Research? They may be able to provide more insight as to its significance. If you haven't reported to them before, you may also want to be careful when trying to publish; check what artifact collection laws were in place when you found it.

I really hope you are able to get something published about it, or something of that nature that makes its presence in Florida known to the academic community. It looks like a spectacular find!

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worthy 55

I really do not think there were any laws about finding artifacts in 1969 but I will check though. I did show a picture of it to someone at the FMNH research center and did get a little info. But was told that she would need a hands on look to tell me more, and before the conversation was over she wanted me to donate it to them. Thats why I only brought a picture of it ! I have seen what happens to most of the stuff that has been donated, it stays hidden from the publics eyes. The research center has things that the public at large will never see, I have been there and have seen a lot of artifacts from the Aucilla river dig that will never be seen either. And NO I will never donate to them, let them find their own artifacts. Bring BACK the Isolated Finds Program and we may talk then, but I do not see where they have the public intrest in mind when they keep our natural history hidden, I for one do not trust them!!!! :'( :'( :'( Oh by the way Big Bird was found on an oyster bar in the gulf that has long since washed away.  :(

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emtilt
I have seen what happens to most of the stuff that has been donated, it stays hidden from the publics eyes. The research center has things that the public at large will never see, I have been there and have seen a lot of artifacts from the Aucilla river dig that will never be seen either. And NO I will never donate to them, let them find their own artifacts. Bring BACK the Isolated Finds Program and we may talk then, but I do not see where they have the public intrest in mind when they keep our natural history hidden, I for one do not trust them!!!!

I understand your concerns, but there is also a good reason for that. The primary purpose of the museum's collection is to facilitate paleontological and archaeological research, for which an extensive and well cataloged collection is necessary. While it is nice to have public display, it makes research extremely difficult because researchers are unable to access the specimens without severely hindering either their research or the operation of the museum. The necessary compromise, then, is that a number of wonderful specimens get displayed to the public, but a number of other specimens are kept in the collection storage for researchers to access. The parts of the collection not open to the public are accessible to anyone needing to see them for research purposes, and that collection has contributed an unbelievable amount to scientific knowledge in general (for proof, one needs only to consult the thousands and thousands of papers, journals, and books that cite the collection). So just because it isn't open for everyone to see does not mean it is wasted; it is a compromise that is ultimately beneficial to anyone with an interest in paleontology. I personally would have no problem with my finds being put in the collection but not on display; that is ultimately the way that my finds could best contribute to the field.

I do wish that the Isolated Finds Program would be brought back, though. Please note, however, that the FMNH does not directly have anything to do with those programs. Unlike the paleontology laws, which they oversee and have rights to, the archaeological laws are overseen by the Florida Bureau of Archaeological Research in Tallahassee.

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worthy 55

Yes I agree with you to the extent that students need study material. But just how much is needed? I was shown a bobcat mandible that had been carved with desigins on it about four or so years ago that came from the Aucilla river dig. Just how long will it take for researchers to get all they can out of that piece? I mean come on, cast of alot of that so called study material could be put on display and would not hinder any research. Hey please do not get me wrong ,I love our museum's and just wish they could be more display friendly with the public. The only reason I say that I do not trust them is because I have seen what they do have and have never seen it in the public museum's. And plus I am hardheaded as heck! ;) Like the conversation too! :) :)

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emtilt
Yes I agree with you to the extent that students need study material.

Not just students, but researchers from around the world and of all sorts and disciplines use that collection.

I was shown a bobcat mandible that had been carved with desigins on it about four or so years ago that came from the Aucilla river dig. Just how long will it take for researchers to get all they can out of that piece?

You don't ever really get all you can out of a piece. As new research becomes available, new comparative studies are devised, and the constant recursive building upon itself that the reasearch does allows endless use of a specimen.

I mean come on, cast of alot of that so called study material could be put on display and would not hinder any research.

I suppose more of it could be cast, but I think that would only be beneficial in exceptional cases (perhaps like the bobcat mandible you mentioned). With limited museum space, they only need to display so many specimens of a type. But, yes, I suppose they could provide a little more in that area.

Overall, I still think the system works very well, even if there is room for improvement.

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worthy 55

Emtilt , great reply and you have cleared up a few things for me. I too agree that there can always be room for improvement, and you just proved that thanks! :) :)

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msduncan

First of all... that is amazing.    Beautiful.

Secondly, what are the Florida laws concerning artifacts and fossils in rivers?

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emtilt

In Florida, fossils and artifacts fall under completely different sets of laws.

It is legal to collect any invertebrate fossils and shark teeth from any state land (including submerged lands such as rivers) that are not specifically protected (i.e. that are not a state or national park, preserve, historic site, etc). To collect vertebrate fossils, one must obtain a fossil collecting permit that costs five dollars per year. The permit holder is required to report all finds at the end of the year, and the state can claim any that are deemed scientifically important. If the state does not claim a fossil withing 60 days of its being reported, the fossil becomes the collector's property to do with as he or she wishes. It is illegal to sell or otherwise get rid of the fossil prior to this point. This is the page on the Florida Museum of Natural History's (which regulates state fossil resources) website which covers the Florida fossil permit.

Artifact laws are much stricter. Currently, they cannot be collected at all from public lands. Florida did away with its "isolated finds program," which allowed people to keep isolated artifacts that were not claimed by the state once reported, a few years ago despite a decent amount of protest. Now it is illegal to remove any artifact from public land. Any artifact hunting must be done on private property. This is the website of the body regulating such laws.

These laws are enforced more and less strictly in different parts of the state. On some rivers, people are asked to show their fossil permit fairly regularly. In my opinion, the current fossil permit system works pretty well. I wish the artifact laws would change a bit, though.

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tomclark

WHO MUST OBTAIN A PERMIT?

Any person or entity buying, selling or trading vertebrate fossils found on or under state-owned or leased land; and/or

Any person or entity engaged in the systematic collection, acquisition, or restoration of vertebrate fossils found on state-owned or leased land.

"Systematic collection" is hereby characterized by one or more of the following three features:

volume of collections of vertebrate fossils in excess of one gallon at one site;

use of any power-driven machinery or mechanical excavating tools of any size or hand tools greater than two (2) feet in length;

the collection, acquisition, excavation, salvage, exhumation or restoration of vertebrate fossils at a site on more than three days or a maximum of twenty-four hours during a period of one year.

  They can stick the permit up in their cloaca boom.  Put your name on the list so they know who collects, etc.  This "privilege" will be taken just like the Isolated Finds Program.  I am not cooperating with the state on this at all until they resume the IFP.

Selective enforcement is snarge.  Go to the Peace River and you can dig up the bottom all day long with rangers in plain sight.  Try to do that on the Santa Fe.  Try to use a hand tool greater than two feet in length on the Santa Fe...... or any tool for that matter....!!

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worthy 55

Tom, like the water bottling battle. Which is growing with the power of our citizens!! :) It would be nice for all of us to pull together ON OUR RIGHTS TO COLLECT OUR HISTORY BEFORE IT TURNS TO SAND!!!! :'(

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Gatorman

Just to make it clear all artifacts posted on this forum were found prior to the new laws or found on private land and thereby legal. Any artifact not meeting this will be removed.

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worthy 55

Anson, any artifact I show here were collected before the new law changes were made. :)

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tomclark

Here's my last "legal" point from the Santa Fe, found upstream from Rum Island.  I have a paper from the state saying I own it and they don't need it for their "extensive" research dump (that get sold or trashed when the museums and research facilities don't "need" them anymore).  This point was also included in my LAST fossil permit report.  I wouldn't help an archaeologist from Florida get a new roll of toilet paper even if they were stranded on the throne.  And I'm not helping them get to the point where it will be illegal to pick up a shark's tooth on the beach.  Make no mistake that is their agenda.

13736.jpg

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Guest Cris

I wonder if drooling on my keyboard is bad for it...? That thing is amazing............... And yeah, they have the attitude that it would be better laying on the bottom of a river forever, or shattered into a million pieces, rather than be in the hands of "the public"

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Gatorman
:o

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worthy 55

In the hands of the public is a good thing like in my collection! I show my collection to everyone who wants to see it! ;D ;D :);)

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