St Clair Pa

[PAJim]

I just caught wind (on a few youtube videos) that the St. Clair fern sight in PA has been shut down. Something to do with an interaction between a fossil hunter and the landowners.... I was planning a trip out with my kid, guess I'll be looking elsewhere.

[Auspex]

Word is that it was a commercial 'pay-to-dig' tour operator that got it closed.

I have a suspicion who it was; if I had proof, I'd out them.

[PA Fossil Finder]

Darn, that is seriously disappointing. I had never been there myself, but I've heard it was an incredible site. I can't believe someone would try to commercialize someone else's land!

[Shamalama]

Word is that it was a commercial 'pay-to-dig' tour operator that got it closed.

I have a suspicion who it was; if I had proof, I'd out them.

I think I know who it is as well.... takes people to publicly open sites and charges for their "expertise".

[Fossildude19]

This thread was the first I had heard of it.

Always the few bad apples that spoil it for everyone.

Regards,

Edited July 29, 2015 by Fossildude19

[erose]

I just caught wind (on a few youtube videos) that the St. Clair fern sight in PA has been shut down. Something to do with an interaction between a fossil hunter and the landowners.... I was planning a trip out with my kid, guess I'll be looking elsewhere.

Can you share the link to the youtube videos?

[FossilDAWG]

I think some kind of public shaming would be in order if the person responsible could be identified with certainty. This person's behavior has cost all of us a great site.

Unfortunately it's not the first time selfish behavior has closed a site, nor will it be the last. 10 Mile Creek in Florida and the Lumber River in South Carolina come to mind as classic examples.

Don

[Auspex]

Without slam-dunk proof, I (or worse, "we") would be open to a law suite for slander if I named names. Ain't goin' there!

I also want to take this opportunity to emphasize that there are many, many outstanding tour operators who follow the rules of property law scrupulously. I'd hate to see this person's bad reputation spill over onto the good ones!

[FossilDAWG]

I agree. It's just frustrating, this gradual loss of collecting sites due to inexcusable behavior.

Don

[PAJim]

I just youtubed "St Clair Fossils" and pretty much just read the comments below. I watched two videos, and both had comments about it being shut down.

[jpevahouse]

During my teens my step father managed a mine in northern Alabama. One day we were driving along a road, stopped for some reason I don't remember and there were large piles of shale completely saturated with the most beautiful fern fossils and plants, even better quality than what I've seen from St Clair.

I guess my point is there must be other sites containing large quantities of Carboniferous era fossils available to collectors? My interest isn't particularly in those early fossils but for someone who is there must be alternatives.

[Fossildude19]

... I guess my point is there must be other sites containing large quantities of Carboniferous era fossils available to collectors? My interest isn't particularly in those early fossils but for someone who is there must be alternatives.

Sure, there are other sites to collect ferns, and other Carboniferous plants.

But that is a bit like saying,... "Well, the Burgess Shale is off limits, but surely there are other lagerstatten to collect at?"

The issues are (to me, at least!) that:

A.) It was an ultra productive site, with many species of plants and some insects. You could find treasures in other peoples spoil piles, .. and were literally walking on fer fossils!

B.) It was only one of a few sites ( of maybe 4 or so, in the WORLD) that produced the classic White on Black fern/plant fossils. The white pryophylite is not a common occurrence. (Those of you with St. Clair material, hold on to it, as it will be worth something later. )

C.) It was a fairly accessible site. Not too bad of a hike in, or out. ( Unless you didn't have a hand truck, wheeled cart, atv, or wagon.)

No matter how you spin it, it still boils down to the fact that some greedy people almost always spoil it for everyone else.

And a world class collecting locality is no longer available to the general public.

Regards,

Edited July 31, 2015 by Fossildude19

[PAJim]

I'm going to try out the Carbondale PA spot at some point to see what ferns are to be found there. A bit farther away from me than St. Clair, but maybe worth a shot.

[fossilized6s]

What a shame. This has happened to a few areas around the Francis Creek pits and to most quarries around here.

They should be heavily fined ($5k+) and/or sued, and sent packing. It sucks that a few "bad apples" spoiled the lot. Ugh

Cross St.Clair off thee ol' bucket list.

[Wrangellian]

I wish there was a way to appeal to the landowners and spell out for them that this is only one bad apple among many responsible collectors - the rest of us - who don't deserve to be affected thereby. They are all taking the easy way out of their peeves, when they could spend a little more effort, for example by issuing permits??, and make more people happy and not squander such a resource that should be accessible in the name of science, education, and keeping kids off the streets.

[Auspex]

...They are all taking the easy way out of their peeves...

Seriously? The land owners are the aggrieved party here, and have been extremely generous in allowing public access for many years! They have no reason to want to incur further liability, especially when some people did not treat the land with respect.

It is a shame, but it is not the fault of the owners.

[erose]

Unfortunately it was not the first time some one tried to make money off of the site with out asking permission. Back in the 90's a commercial collector came in with a backhoe and removed tons(?) of material without asking. there was a thread on this forum from a year or two back about liter and debris left by what appeared to have been commercial collectors.

[Wrangellian]

Seriously? The land owners are the aggrieved party here, and have been extremely generous in allowing public access for many years! They have no reason to want to incur further liability, especially when some people did not treat the land with respect.

It is a shame, but it is not the fault of the owners.

So my wording wasn't quite right, as usual. I'm not saying it's the fault of the owners, but it is only the fault of one collector, not all of us or even the majority of us. Is this really their only option for a solution? I'll bet you when this happens they are in a meeting groaning about "those ^&%$# fossil collectors". Now, if one of us contacted them to ask permission to collect and explained that we would not leave a mess and not take much, they would say 'no', even though it was that one person who did make a mess who annoyed them.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Wrangellian

[Wrangellian]

Unfortunately it was not the first time some one tried to make money off of the site with out asking permission. Back in the 90's a commercial collector came in with a backhoe and removed tons(?) of material without asking. there was a thread on this forum from a year or two back about liter and debris left by what appeared to have been commercial collectors.

OK, a couple here and there. But they seem to be commercial collectors (those who need to take out a huge amount of fossils to make a profit).

[JohnJ]

For now, regardless of the reasons they closed it, the owner's property rights should be respected. And unless someone here is privy to the owner's plans, we don't have enough information to know the future of the site.

Maybe it is possible for fossil clubs to negotiate future access according to the owner's guidelines.

[Wrangellian]

For now, regardless of the reasons they closed it, the owner's property rights should be respected. And unless someone here is privy to the owner's plans, we don't have enough information to know the future of the site.

Maybe it is possible for fossil clubs to negotiate future access according to the owner's guidelines.

That's kind of what I was hoping.

[jpevahouse]

For many years I collected antique bottles, a hobby which increased greatly in popularity since the 1970s. Most collectors dig for bottles. They consider it more sporting than buying at a flea market or auction. Digging bottles, at least where I've lived realistically means sneaking on other people's property or a construction site and hoping you aren't run off by an angry land owner.

I think fossil hunting is an even more complicated activity. Beside having to go on other people's property there's the issue of public parks and government lands where taking artifacts or antiquities is prohibited. Getting around those obstacles can certainly be a challenge. But there's the ever looming history of collectors and relic hunters who have looted sites without mercy or regard to historical importance for personal gain over the last 200 years in the US and much longer in Europe.

I started out as an Indian relic collector and saw in some cases the ugliest side of what people can do to historic sites. Collectors of course would like uninhibited access to what they desire and whatever means they chose to obtain it.

In other words relic hunters and collectors have given themselves a poor reputation for self control. Therefore it's inevitable more and more productive sites which attract collectors will become inaccessible. Some of the best phosphate mines in Florida I hear no longer allow collecting or greatly restrict it. Construction sites go to much greater efforts to keep bottle collectors out, at least around here.

It's a sad fact people are often judged by the lower 2 percent of the gene pool. We all pay a price for their lack of self control.

[Wrangellian]

...

Collectors of course would like uninhibited access to what they desire and whatever means they chose to obtain it.

In other words relic hunters and collectors have given themselves a poor reputation for self control. Therefore it's inevitable more and more productive sites which attract collectors will become inaccessible. Some of the best phosphate mines in Florida I hear no longer allow collecting or greatly restrict it. Construction sites go to much greater efforts to keep bottle collectors out, at least around here.

It's a sad fact people are often judged by the lower 2 percent of the gene pool. We all pay a price for their lack of self control.

Let's be clear: It's not a bad thing that collectors want to collect, it's a bad thing that a few do so recklessly, disregarding laws and proper techniques. I'm not sure that any of the collectors I have known have ever been this way. At my local site it's the non-fossil-collectors such as bikers who leave garbage and tear up the landscape who I think are more likely to get the place closed off. Banning responsible collecting at any site is simply bad - worse than banning hunting or dirtbiking.

Yes it's a sad fact that the rest of us are judged by those 2 percent, but is it inevitable? This strikes me a little as defeatist, when I am not sure that everything hasn't been tried by us responsible collectors to point out to the landowners that we are not all the same, and are mostly not associated with each other and therefore don't deserve the same treatment. I bet the guy(s) whose behavior at St Clair got it shut down are not members of TFF or any of the fossil club/paleo societies, am I right? But the blanket ban treats us all as if we were the same person or organization/company. To say "you have been irresponsible, therefore you are banned from collecting here" is 98% incorrect and unfair! Likewise, when you say fossil hunters have given themselves a poor reputation, this is also incorrect, as only about 2% of them have done so (by our for-the-sake-of-argument estimates).

I don't know whether the St Clair landowners (or any of the others around the world who ban all collecting) do so because it is the easiest solution (as per my earlier comment) or because they really think we are all the same, bad to the core and indistinguishable from one another, but I can not accept that the blanket ban is the only solution, just the easiest for them, and I think we are distinguishable from one another and should not be tarred with the same brush, and I would want to make sure the landowners understand this. Has anyone approached the St Clair landowner (or any of the others) and appealed to them to not close the site off altogether, perhaps to issue permits at least to groups as John suggests, or do we just sit around going "oh well" each time this happens until there are no more spots to collect at (which I think Billheim's being-allowed-to-collect-and-take-things-home-led-some-of-us-to-being-scientists/museum-donors thread indicates would be a counterproductive tragedy)? Rather than accepting it as inevitable, I'd prefer we start thinking of ways to appeal these decisions and make sure it's only the bad apples that get barred. We try to appeal when gov't restricts access to fossil sites, though we might recognize we are up against a slow-moving behemoth when we do, but still we try... so why not try with private/commercial landowners also? Or has this been tried already numerous times with various tacks and it has always failed, and I have not heard about it?

Edited August 1, 2015 by Wrangellian

[Auspex]

Any form of controlled access requires oversight, and on-site monitoring is simply impossible at sites like St. Claire. There is just no one there to do it. Even if there were, allowing access for collecting incurs liability risks. What is in it for the owners? Good will? That hasn't worked out all that well. Transferring the property to the municipality, to be administered as a fossil park, could be a viable plan. Funds permitting, staffing a contact station, charging an admission fee, and establishing rules about how much can be taken out is a model with precedence.

[Wrangellian]

Who is on site now to watch out for trespassers?