Jaw With Teeth

[ZiggieCie]

Coco, with what appears to be a lack of jaw structure, could that be a Neanderthal?

[njfossilhunter]

Coco, with what appears to be a lack of jaw structure, could that be a Neanderthal?

That's a interesting observation ....Its a possibility if it was found in France

[caldigger]

Isn't it ironic that ya'll have no problem picking up and handling bones and other body parts from every other creature that ever existed. But when it comes to handling a part from one of our own kind ( or at least ancestral), it creeps you out and you don't want to go near it with a ten foot pole. It's been dead a long time people!

Another cause of tooth wear that hasn't been addressed here is the regular diet that "native" peoples had. A lot of the food was prepared via grinding it against stone. This creates rock dust in the prepared food and thus a good amount of grit mixed into the meal that grinds the teeth down as it is chewed.

[Coco]

Coco, with what appears to be a lack of jaw structure, could that be a Neanderthal?

I can't answer to that... I have found this jaw in France, in my area : Anjou (North-West).

Coco

[abyssunder]

First of all, my advice is to consult an anthropologist who guide you for radiocarbon date and if possible a DNA/mtDNA test. Thank you Coco for the very good pictures and your intervention (I agree with you and what your dentist said, it helps).
The conclusions in my research (as a non specialist in domain) in this lower jaw, is as it follows:
1 - not an Ape because of the mental eminence (chin)
2 - not an Ape because of the canine
3 - not an Ape because the dental arcade shape and divergence of tooth rows : for Apes is U-shaped dental arcade, for Hominids is parabolic. The dental rows divergence average for Apes is 0, for Hominids increase in the evolution sequence, for eg. 10 degrees (Dryopithecus), 20 degrees (Ramapithecus), 30 degrees (Australopithecus), an so on.
Looking at the pictures of the specimen in question and making some approximate measurements, I think we have to deal with an ancestor of hominids (maybe I`m wrong, and the whole theory will be dismissed). Neanderthal,Cro -magnon in Europe? Native American ancestor for U.S.?

[Coco]

Hi,

Please, what means "Ape" ? (Australopithecus ?).

Coco

[Al Dente]

Coco's jaw has a chin which Neanderthal's lack.

[abyssunder]

I used the popular term "Ape" for the reason to describe a hominid other than human, for example a chimpanzee, although they are in the same Family/Subfamily.
Al Dente, I think you are right about Neanderthalensis jaw lacked chin, also Australopithecines don't have it.

[abyssunder]

I attach here a time scale of Hominoidea ancestry as correlated with glaciation and cultural periods, maybe is usefull.

Coco's human jaw indicate that the specimen was an adult one because the location of the mental foramen, is in the middle distance between the inferior border of mandible and the alveolar crest, oriented upwards and outwards. In older age the mental foramen tend to be closer to the alveolar crest, in childhood closer to the inferior border. Also the mental eminence is more developed in older age than in younger. Very interesting case is the first pic of this thread (garyc's mandible), in which I see that an accessory mental foramen is present, an anatomical variation due to the fact of separation of the mental nerve before formation of the mental foramen into several fasciculi, which lead to formation of accessory mental foramen.

[Shellseeker]

Isn't it ironic that ya'll have no problem picking up and handling bones and other body parts from every other creature that ever existed. But when it comes to handling a part from one of our own kind ( or at least ancestral), it creeps you out and you don't want to go near it with a ten foot pole. It's been dead a long time people!

Another cause of tooth wear that hasn't been addressed here is the regular diet that "native" peoples had. A lot of the food was prepared via grinding it against stone. This creates rock dust in the prepared food and thus a good amount of grit mixed into the meal that grinds the teeth down as it is chewed.

I have considered this, especially when I find jaws with teeth (Camel, Tapir, wolf). I could only hope that a fossil hunter finding my jaw with a couple of teeth in 10000 years would treat it with a sense of value and respect and NOT toss it back into the river or bury it again.

[garyc]

Isn't it ironic that ya'll have no problem picking up and handling bones and other body parts from every other creature that ever existed. But when it comes to handling a part from one of our own kind ( or at least ancestral), it creeps you out and you don't want to go near it with a ten foot pole. It's been dead a long time people

Being an amateur leaves much room for doubt. I was fairly certain when I first saw it that it was human but not 100% sure. I was also unsure of its age. The only thing that creeped me out about it was a tiny nagging thought that I was in possession of a piece of evidence that may help solve a cold case of a missing person. Now that I am quite convinced that this is much older I do not have the creeped out feeling at all. The bone itself did not bother me. In fact when I first picked it up I held it under my own chin noting that it is quite a bit wider than my own.

[garyc]

I attach here a time scale of Hominoidea ancestry as correlated with glaciation and cultural periods, maybe is usefull. fig2-14.jpg

Coco's human jaw indicate that the specimen was an adult one because the location of the mental foramen, is in the middle distance between the inferior border of mandible and the alveolar crest, oriented upwards and outwards. In older age the mental foramen tend to be closer to the alveolar crest, in childhood closer to the inferior border. Also the mental eminence is more developed in older age than in younger. Very interesting case is the first pic of this thread (garyc's mandible), in which I see that an accessory mental foramen is present, an anatomical variation due to the fact of separation of the mental nerve before formation of the mental foramen into several fasciculi, which lead to formation of accessory mental foramen.

um....That all looks like English but it is not the language I am familiar with. I know that it is important information but I do not understand the significance. Please explain

[jpevahouse]

I have considered this, especially when I find jaws with teeth (Camel, Tapir, wolf). I could only hope that a fossil hunter finding my jaw with a couple of teeth in 10000 years would treat it with a sense of value and respect and NOT toss it back into the river or bury it again.

I think that is the fundamental question here. We are taught from an early age to respect the dead and go to extremes to express reverence for our dead. Yet, in this type of case remains of a dead person become a curio mainly because of the distance time puts between us and the living person. How long should we wait before we consider the remains of another human being as a curiousity? If the remains were 50 years old would we view them the same? How about 1,000 years?

I think time does distance us from the past living person but still I really don't have an answer for that question.

Edited August 28, 2015 by jpevahouse

[abyssunder]

um....That all looks like English but it is not the language I am familiar with. I know that it is important information but I do not understand the significance. Please explain

I've just tried to configure something for determining the possible age of the Hominid and to find its position in the evolution scale (ancestor or modern human).

[garyc]

I've just tried to configure something for determining the possible age of the Hominid and to find its position in the evolution scale (ancestor or modern human).

Ok. So, based on your observation of the presence and position of the various foramen, are you able to propose where my jaw may fit in chronologically?

Also, is there a relatively definitive point in time that separates ancestor from modern human?

Edited August 29, 2015 by garyc

[FLINTandBONE]

I have considered this, especially when I find jaws with teeth (Camel, Tapir, wolf). I could only hope that a fossil hunter finding my jaw with a couple of teeth in 10000 years would treat it with a sense of value and respect and NOT toss it back into the river or bury it again.

I do not mean to sound morbid but I too have thought about this and If I was not to be cremated I would be fine with this to happen. In fact I would prefer someone or something many years from now to keep my remains as a trophy or item to study a past species and civilization. While my conscience exists I will be attached to my physical self but after that I would hope that my demise might someday mean something to someone, I'm an organ donor too.

[Auspex]

...is there a relatively definitive point in time that separates ancestor from modern human?

Cro Magnon is anatomically modern; after that, there are gender/race/age/individual differences.

[abyssunder]

If I were an anthropologist probably I could answer this question, but unfortunately I'm not, so I just could guess that the jaw in question (if it were in Europe) could belong to an early modern human (so-called Cro-Magnon ), early Homo sapiens.

[PFOOLEY]

I cannot find the words to describe what an awesome piece that is...forget about a case, make your self a crown and wear it everywhere you go.. .Absolutely fantastic find!

[garyc]

Very interesting. Museum does not want it because of legal implications, so referred to UofH. UofH anthropologist researched state regs and referred me to coroner/sheriff. The county where I found it does not have coroner, so I spoke to sheriff's dept. They hemmed and hawed and said try Harris County (Houston). They did not ask to see it or request an official report. The way I see it.....I've done my due diligence.

[RickNC]

Very interesting. Museum does not want it because of legal implications, so referred to UofH. UofH anthropologist researched state regs and referred me to coroner/sheriff. The county where I found it does not have coroner, so I spoke to sheriff's dept. They hemmed and hawed and said try Harris County (Houston). They did not ask to see it or request an official report. The way I see it.....I've done my due diligence.

Agreed.

[Auspex]

Your experience reveals the deep-seated cultural taboo associated with human remains.

[JohnJ]

Very interesting. Museum does not want it because of legal implications, so referred to UofH. UofH anthropologist researched state regs and referred me to coroner/sheriff. The county where I found it does not have coroner, so I spoke to sheriff's dept. They hemmed and hawed and said try Harris County (Houston). They did not ask to see it or request an official report. The way I see it.....I've done my due diligence.

Good work, Gary.

[Shellseeker]

Gary,

Just coming back to see JohnJ's append, and started some searches,

A little different on my view of fossil ownership, but interesting

web.stanford.edu/dept/HPS/Mayorwhosebones.pdf

and then this:

IF you have trouble accessing the pdf, do a google search for
Newsletter #10 - Houston Archeological Society

The very first entry will be the following PDF which has LOTS of details

www.txhas.org/PDF/journals/.../HAS%20Newsletter%20No%2010.pdf with the quote

The teeth of all people occlude and,
regardless of age, all show uncommon wearing, probably from having chewed considerable
sand. Several of the old folks show what may be osteoporosis (the
growth of superfluous porous bone).

Very interesting stuff....

Edited September 1, 2015 by Shellseeker

[KATYTXHUNTER]

Wow cool find! I have several human remains and have never felt any creepy feeling from them.