Kem Kem Bones

[LordTrilobite]

Recently I bought a whole bunch of Kem Kem material from the Late Cretaceous. And among them were there bones that really intrigued me. I have a rough idea what they could be. Though I'm really not sure as I have too little experience with such material. Measurements in cm.

I was thinking this bone looked a lot like a hyoid bone. There's some repair and a little bit of reconstruction on one end. But it's mostly intact and hollow.

I find this one really interesting. I don't want to jump to conclusions but I think it looks like a jaw or beak. A Pterosaur perhaps? It doesn't show in the pictures but this piece is hollow and has quite a thin wall.

Then there are these two bones which I think look like metatarsals. Or are they metacarpals? The broken one is hollow and the complete one might be but there is no way too tell. I scanned the broken piece using photogrammetry for easier identification. So I hope that helps.

Any information on these pieces would be greatly appreciated.

[Troodon]

Wow great use of photogrammetry. My guess it looks avian. Working from the bottom. The other bone with it turtle? Need more photos. The first thing that came to mind with the one you call pterosaur is that, a partial beak? No idea on your top one.

Here is a beak I can send you more images if that helps

Edited September 9, 2015 by Troodon

[Auspex]

Maybe pterosaur?

I cannot come up with any good analogs in the avian skeleton.

[Troodon]

My left image shows a full length depression on the top of the beak. I think it looks similar to yours.

[LordTrilobite]

Avian, hm, that's really interesting because I can't find any reference of birds in Kem Kem. Thanks!

Here's another picture of the other metatarsal(?) viewed from the dorsal side.

And yeah, I was thinking the same with that beak-like piece. There's no trace of any teeth. And I found a good paper on an Azhdarchid from Kem Kem.

http://journals.plos.org/ploscollections/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0010875

Some of the angles seem similar. But the keel of the jaw in the paper is a lot more pronounced. The keel on my piece is sorta flat and indented in one spot due to crushing. It's not nearly as sharp.

What is the keel like on the piece in your pictures Troodon?

Edited September 9, 2015 by LordTrilobite

[Troodon]

Took some quick phone pictures of the keel and its flat. My understanding is that its an upper beak.

That other bone the detail in the ends is hard to make out. Don't know but it still says turtle but I'm flexible .

The avian guess was that a guess and I said that because it was hollow and not

dinosaurian.

Edit nice paper thanks

Edited September 9, 2015 by Troodon

[LordTrilobite]

When I compare your last two photos with my beak, the angles are exactly the same except for mine being slightly crushed to one side. But it has the same thickness of bone and the same flat top. The only real difference I can see is that my piece is less tall.

So Pterosaur upper jaw then?

There are Azhdarchids and Tapejaids present in Kem Kem, which are both toothless. But don't both of those have fairly tall beaks?

And don't all Theropods have hollow bones? So wouldn't say, a raptor metatarsal be fairly similar to that of a bird?

And I'll make some better photos of the possible turtle in the morning.

[Troodon]

I'm in agreement you have yourself a pterosaur beak, believe it's upper if it's a match to mine. Great pickup.

Yes all theropods have hollow bones. The articulation just does not look like a theropod that I see in North America but who know what's in the Kem Kem. That's why I said avian.

[ZiggieCie]

Very nice presentation, and great 3D. Everything is getting better.

[Troodon]

A genus of Azhdarchids described from the Kem Kem is Alanqa. Not saying its yours but one can use it to help confirmation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alanqa

Edit:

Point on metatarsals, the shafts are not oval like yours. The sides are tapered so that three can fit together. Metacarpals are basically the same. An oval type of bone is typically a limb bone.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Troodon

[Troodon]

By the way since avian and dinosaurs appear to have been ruled out, another group of animals with hollow bones are Pterosaurs. Not that your bone is one but it should be explored. I'm thinking of carpals that are more round than flat. Not a lot of comparative material around.

Edit: that includes your Y bone.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Troodon

[LordTrilobite]

Here are some more photos of that possible turtle bone. I think it looks fairly similar to that bird bone. Only it's a lot more damaged, making it harder to identify.

Distal on the left side

Distal on the right side

And here is also an occlusal view of both sides of the Pterosaur beak.

[Troodon]

Boy your beak is identical to mine. Nice.

Much better images on that other bone, and will retract my turtle comment I do not think it's one. Any possibility it's hollow?

[LordTrilobite]

It's possible that the bone is hollow. But I don't really feel like breaking the bone in half. And it's hard to tell. but I think the middle is roughly the same shape as the broken one. So an asymmetric oval shape.

And concerning the Y bone. The reason I was thinking of a hyoid bone, possibly a Pterosaur, was because of these two pictures. Though when I look at them now. My bone is a lot more robust.

The only other thing I can think of, is an avian furcula.

Edited September 10, 2015 by LordTrilobite

[Auspex]

...concerning the Y bone....I was thinking of a hyoid bone, possibly a Pterosaur...

This is exactly my thinking.

[Troodon]

You may have gotten a box of pterosaur bones. Not much else can have a hyoid with that long a shaft.

[LordTrilobite]

Well it was this lot: http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/56036-misc-dino-fossils-from-morocco/

So there's some Spinosaurus, Carcharodontosaurus, Onchopristis, Lungfish, Gar and other stuff. So it's not all pterosaur.

And not much else seems to fit with the Y. But it just seems so fat for a Pterosaur.

Regardless, thanks for all the help so far in any case. It's great to know that my initial instincts on the beak were correct.

Edited September 10, 2015 by LordTrilobite

[Troodon]

What a great deal you got. I looked at a couple of books I have on pterosaurs and could not find anything like your Y bone other than your image. Like you said not much else seems to fit. Skulls from that group of pterosaurs could get pretty large. Not a lot of pterosaur experts out there.

[LordTrilobite]

Yes I suppose you're right.

[Troodon]

I did not realize the link I sent before was the same pdf you sent me. Sorry about that why I should not do posts on the phone. Here is a PDF of pterosaur hyoid bones. Not sure it clarifies anything but more information.

create_pdf.pdf

[LordTrilobite]

Ooh, I hadn't seen that one yet. Great info.

But not sure anything completely fits. In terms of overall shape and angle seems a bit similar to that of Darwinopterus. But that is still a LOT thinner than my bone. And on my Y bone I don't see much breakage. It seems to be complete. It's just so wide.

[Troodon]

No nothing seems to fit, a bit fustrating. Kem Kem material is just full of mysteries and many will remain that way. On a positive note, from that paper, is the number of variations that exists in hyoid bones. One can make make the assumption that additional variations should exist.

[LordTrilobite]

Yes I suppose so. I guess for the time being I'll just say it's probably a Hyoid bone from some animal.