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Troodon

Kem Kem Theropod Teeth: what you need to know

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Foozil

Thanks very much for this guide!

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Troodon

Thanks very much for this guide!

If you have any specific questions glad to assist.

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-Andy-

About Deltadromeus, are you suggesting that those we see in the market today are in fact misidentified, perhaps Carch teeth?

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Carcharodontosaurus

About Deltadromeus, are you suggesting that those we see in the market today are in fact misidentified, perhaps Carch teeth?

Many "Deltadromeus" teeth I've seen are indistinguishable from carch teeth. The name is a marketing label as no skull remains are known. Adding more to the confusing is that some studies have shown the closest relative of Deltadromeus to be Limusaurus, a toothless, herbivorous ceratosaur, so it is possible Deltadromeus was a herbivore with no teeth at all.

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-Andy-

Seems that this topic of Deltadromeus was heavily discussed before > http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/40340-difference-between-deltadromeus-carcharodontosaurus-teeth/

One of the key questions asked wasn't answered however: It seems it would be more suitable to view it more as a Moroccan/African ceratosaur. Though any teeth experts here can help clarify as to what are the key features of a ceratosaurian tooth that distinguish it from a carcharodontosaurid tooth?

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Troodon

Very nice scans. What size are these teeth?

Edit: I think you are spot on with your ID's

Edited by Troodon

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Troodon

About Deltadromeus, are you suggesting that those we see in the market today are in fact misidentified, perhaps Carch teeth?

IMO, on smaller thin ones, yes they could be but I can easily change with facts, again just my opinion. Need to keep an open mind here, there may be other Carch type species in the Kem Kem. I looked at several teeth and all their serrations were the same as Carch. Deltadromeus is currently classified as a ceratosaurian so I would have expected them to be different but they might not be. My initial post came across to strong since I don't know and because its an opinion I changed it to say these are Theropod indet.

Its also risky to use dealers as a source for ID's we need to deal in what is published or state its an opinion. Theropods in the Kem Kem are poorly understood and we need to wait to see what comes out and not be swayed by what is sold. In the end we need a skull with teeth "published" to put this to bed.

Edited by Troodon

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LordTrilobite

Very nice scans. What size are these teeth?

Edit: I think you are spot on with your ID's

Sorry I should have added that right away. for them to be the most useful. Here are the sizes in cm and inches. I've also added the sizes to the earlier post.

Carcharodontosaurus tooth

6.5 cm tall (about 2.5 inch)

Abelisaurid tooth

1.9 cm tall (about 3/4 inch)

It might also be worth mentioning crocodile teeth as those are sometimes confused with Spinosaurus.

And some dealers also sometimes claim that certain teeth are from Suchomimus. As I understand it this would be impossible since Suchomimus doesn't appear in Morocco at all and is from an earlier time period than that of Kem Kem. Teeth from Morocco that are identified as Suchomimus are probably just Spinosaurus.

Edited by LordTrilobite

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Troodon

Good add-on LordTrilobite. I've seen that occur.

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-Andy-

Opinions on this tooth?

It was marketed as a Deltadromeus tooth, and measures over 6 inches (the guy has a huge hand).

The authenticity of the tooth is not in question; the seller comes highly recommended and the tooth has been seen by several experts. The only question is... what animal does it belong to.

post-4888-0-60037000-1444319869_thumb.jpg post-4888-0-84399400-1444319956_thumb.jpg post-4888-0-40367400-1444319959_thumb.jpg

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Troodon

Very nice rooted tooth. In my opinion it's a Carch tooth from the front of a jaw. Just ask yourself what size skull can support that size tooth? Much too big to fit into midsize dinosaurs like Deltadromeus. Are you buying or just gawking at it. :wub:

Question? How can any seller be highly recommended if they are marketing Deltadromeus teeth that no one knows what they look like?

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Dracorex_hogwartsia

I agree with Troodon. This is a Carch tooth! Judging by the shape of the tooth, round and robust rather than flat and blade like, this is what most people refer to as a premaxillary tooth. If this tooth is all original, it is very rare indeed! You do not see very many rooted teeth of any kind from Morocco that are real!

Also, like Troodon said, why is a reputable dealer describing this tooth as Deltadromeus!?

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-Andy-

Very nice rooted tooth. In my opinion it's a Carch tooth from the front of a jaw. Just ask yourself what size skull can support that size tooth? Much too big to fit into midsize dinosaurs like Deltadromeus. Are you buying or just gawking at it. :wub:

Question? How can any seller be highly recommended if they are marketing Deltadromeus teeth that no one knows what they look like?

I agree with Troodon. This is a Carch tooth! Judging by the shape of the tooth, round and robust rather than flat and blade like, this is what most people refer to as a premaxillary tooth. If this tooth is all original, it is very rare indeed! You do not see very many rooted teeth of any kind from Morocco that are real!

Also, like Troodon said, why is a reputable dealer describing this tooth as Deltadromeus!?

There's two schools of thoughts it seem, on Deltadromeus. One is yours, in which we don't know what Delta was like, and hence there's no actual identifiable Delta anywhere.

The other is that certain features of Moroccan teeth makes them Deltadromeus. I've not gotten a reply from the dealer yet as to why he was so certain this giant tooth he sold was a Delta not a Carch(He told me once it was tough to get the ID down, so he definitely considered Carch for this tooth at one point), but here's what George Corneille of Fossilgrove said on the subject: "Delta teeth are distinctive in they are very lateral compressed and are long and narrow,interesting point you may not know is Gabrielle Lyon who discovered Delta told me no skull was ever found with the skeleton,so id is conjecture."

Here's a pic of George's Delta tooth.

post-4888-0-00918100-1444607935_thumb.jpg post-4888-0-37289600-1444607937_thumb.jpg post-4888-0-87879800-1444607938_thumb.jpg post-4888-0-10291200-1444607940_thumb.jpg

This dealer seem to have

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Dracorex_hogwartsia

There's two schools of thoughts it seem, on Deltadromeus. One is yours, in which we don't know what Delta was like, and hence there's no actual identifiable Delta anywhere.

The other is that certain features of Moroccan teeth makes them Deltadromeus. I've not gotten a reply from the dealer yet as to why he was so certain this giant tooth he sold was a Delta not a Carch(He told me once it was tough to get the ID down, so he definitely considered Carch for this tooth at one point), but here's what George Corneille of Fossilgrove said on the subject: "Delta teeth are distinctive in they are very lateral compressed and are long and narrow,interesting point you may not know is Gabrielle Lyon who discovered Delta told me no skull was ever found with the skeleton,so id is conjecture."

Here's a pic of George's Delta tooth.

attachicon.gif10844389_10203877059305268_820723212_o.jpg attachicon.gif10854133_10203877058825256_1365845615_o.jpg attachicon.gif10860771_10203877058865257_1758445882_o.jpg attachicon.gif10864394_10203877059265267_2110692168_o.jpg

This dealer seem to have

I'm just curious as to why you wouldn't think this type of tooth isn't just a juvenile Carcharodontosaurus. Just because it's a smaller tooth, does it have to be a different species?

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Troodon

I love the fact that some dealers have the knowledge to identify their teeth as Deltadromeus and have become theropod experts on Moroccan teeth. The real experts don't even want to speculate on what they look like until they see a skull!

I made this point before but think about the size of skull needed to house that 6" tooth. It's what would expect to find in a sub-adult T-rex or an equivalent size theropod in the Kem Kem like Carcharodontosaurus. The attached photo is National Geographic rendition of Deltadromeus at their Spinosaurus exhibit. Not a lot of room in that skull for a 6" tooth.

post-10935-0-21183500-1444610113_thumb.jpg

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-Andy-

The interesting thing is that in the past, George told me he needs to see many close-ups of my "Delta" teeth in different angles before he can tell if it's a real Delta or a Carch tooth.

I'm also waiting for his reply in what exactly helps him distinguish between them. I consider George to be extremely knowledgeable, especially in Moroccan fossils as his papers on Moroccan Mosasaurs were published before.

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Dracorex_hogwartsia

Until a skull of Deltadromeus is found I am very uncomfortable assigning any teeth to them with certainty. In my opinion though, if any teeth are referred to as Deltadromeus, they should be the smaller very thin blade like teeth that are under an inch long not these larger teeth that are probably just juvenile Carchs.

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Runner64

Until a skull of Deltadromeus is found I am very uncomfortable assigning any teeth to them with certainty. In my opinion though, if any teeth are referred to as Deltadromeus, they should be the smaller very thin blade like teeth that are under an inch long not these larger teeth that are probably just juvenile Carchs.

Wouldn't these small very thin ones be too small for Delta? I have several of these and they appear to be like an average Dromeosaur tooth. Not a tooth belonging to a 26 foot long ceratosaur. Much too small in my opinion. I don't think we can properly identify and assign teeth to this species until skull material is found. It sure does make a good market for dealers that can't put an ID on a theropod tooth from Morroco though.

Edited by Runner64

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-Andy-

Wouldn't these small very thin ones be too small for Delta? I have several of these and they appear to be like an average Dromeosaur tooth. Not a tooth belonging to a 26 foot long ceratosaur. Much too small in my opinion. I don't think we can properly identify and assign teeth to this species until skull material is found. It sure does make a good market for dealers that can't put an ID on a theropod tooth from Morroco though.

I'm thinking though, if we can find a defining feature for this group of unidentified teeth, then they do deserve a name of their own, even if temporary.

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zekky

The one thing about Kem kem that bugs me, is, where are the herbivore teeth/fossils?

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LordTrilobite

Well there is rebbachisaurus. A sauropod. But there does seem to be a certain lack of herbivores.

Though, it was mostly river delta at the time. Maybe the herbivores just didn't fancy a swim in waters where Spinosaurus lurked. :D

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Troodon

That's a question I've wondered for a long time. I have never seen any teeth or bones, other than sauropods, at the Tucson show with all the Morrocan dealers around. Herbivores typically make up a high percentage of a fauna. They are one of the food sources for theropods. Carch, Delta, Abelisaurids had to prey on some animals other than sauropods maybe not??

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-Andy-

Mayhap there was just ALOT of fish to eat there?

On a related note, is there conclusively only one species of pterosaur from Kem Kem?

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