tb2014 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 They are from China. Please tell me if they are real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triceratops Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I'm no expert but I'd be extremly cautious. Fossils like this are commonly faked in China. Others with probably be along soon with their views. 1 -Lyall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I am not a specialist for fossil birds, but the right one seems to be quite ok (may be "enhanced" with some paint). The left one might be a fake or at least partially faked - the pygostyle looks strange and the rib cage seems to be painted. It would be necessary to have a close look at it under the microscope. As Triceratops already mentioned: Be extremely cautious. Thomas Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdsnl Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I'm no expert either but the ribs on the first picture really stand out. They look proportionally tiny and have no thickness. Also too short, too straight with no curve, and are not crushed. I don't know about birds, but with Chinese water reptiles non-crushed ribs is a key feature of fakes. It's quite impossible for such thin bones to be able to withstand the pressure of being buried for so long. The tail looks weird too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Real or Fake off of photos is always difficult because the Chinese do a good job at making fakes and have fooled paleontologists. To get a complete answer you really need to hold the birds under lighting with high power loops or a scope NOT photos. I tell collectors to just stay away from them because you just don't know and there are too many examples of partial or complete fakes. On the surface these look okay with some enhancements but without holding them who knows! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiggieCie Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I would find it highly unlikley that the red chinese would allow bird fossils out of the country, which I do agree with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I would find it highly unlikley that the red chinese would allow bird fossils out of the country, which I do agree with. Most of the fossils from PRC come via Hong Kong. Of course, it's illegal to smuggle them out of China; but once they are in Hong Kong, there is no law to ban export from Hong Kong to other countries and dealers can offer and send them without risk. Thomas 1 Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdsnl Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Most of the fossils from PRC come via Hong Kong. Of course, it's illegal to smuggle them out of China; but once they are in Hong Kong, there is no law to ban export from Hong Kong to other countries and dealers can offer and send them without risk. Thomas It's true that Hong Kong customs will let you through, I've never heard of Chinese fossils being held by them, but some Western countries have taken action when it arrives at their country even if it was shipped from Hong Kong. It's easy for them to tell when certain fossils can only be found in China, and it's up to them to decide whether they would let something enter their country which was originally obtained illegally. Just google Hong Kong fossil export and you should find a few news articles. http://www.scmp.com/article/467405/hong-kongs-customs-status-centre-dinosaur-egg-row http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/dinosaur-egg-trade-rife/2006/03/17/1142098654929.html If you search in Chinese you will find many more cases. The fossils are always seized in the destination country. Sometimes the exporter/importer would be arrested and sent to court in the Western country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 It's true that Hong Kong customs will let you through, I've never heard of Chinese fossils being held by them, but some Western countries have taken action when it arrives at their country even if it was shipped from Hong Kong. It's easy for them to tell when certain fossils can only be found in China, and it's up to them to decide whether they would let something enter their country which was originally obtained illegally. Just google Hong Kong fossil export and you should find a few news articles. http://www.scmp.com/article/467405/hong-kongs-customs-status-centre-dinosaur-egg-row http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/dinosaur-egg-trade-rife/2006/03/17/1142098654929.html If you search in Chinese you will find many more cases. The fossils are always seized in the destination country. Sometimes the exporter/importer would be arrested and sent to court in the Western country. Yup - dealers in Hong Kong can export and are in a safe harbor (at least for the time being) - importers can get in real trouble. 1 Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhw Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 They both look better than ebay's Chinese "fossil bird" offerings this week! Man they're not even trying on these! And a few have multiple bids! First one of yours looks a little weird, and has that characteristic "dancing bird" kind of pose the artists over there seem to favor. The second one looks great! And if real, wow, awesome piece! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgehiker Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 All types of strategies are used to pass fake 'everything'. The most common is to post questions on 'how to identify a fake' whatever. Someone will answer look out for a couple of clues....lettering on a designer label, rock matrix on a fossil, shape of screw on a pair of sunglasses, etc. The fakers aren't stupid. They then adjust accordingly. The lettering on the label looks good so it must be real. No different from fake fossils...add some cracked looking eggshell, etc. and 'now is real' because it passes some bogus test. I've collected several hundred Tyrannosaurid teeth in the field. I have seen fakes that could fool me. There is no way anyone looking at a photo or who hasn't held real ones in the hand could distinguish a fake from a real tooth. But...people keep asking 'is this real'. Send a bunch of good fakes to a seller in Montana to sell from what seems a legitimate source and instant gold mine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdsnl Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 They both look better than ebay's Chinese "fossil bird" offerings this week! Man they're not even trying on these! And a few have multiple bids! First one of yours looks a little weird, and has that characteristic "dancing bird" kind of pose the artists over there seem to favor. The second one looks great! And if real, wow, awesome piece! I've read from some Chinese website (or maybe it was a forum post, don't remember) that people make bad fakes on purpose. Let's say you are a tourist and someone wants to sell you a fake fossil. They will first show you one that is very poorly made. If you say it's fake, they'll admit it. They'll say, "Oh you are so smart! Yes actually this is a fake, but I also have some real ones, come look at this..." and then they will pull out another fake that's done much better. Since they've admitted a fake before, you have now let your guard down, and will be much more likely to be deceived. I wonder if the ebay sellers employ the same tactics. Maybe they post the badly done ones every now and then so that people would think they know what fakes look like, and then when they post a better fake, people would think, this one looks so different from the typical fakes, it's probably a real! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgehiker Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I've read from some Chinese website (or maybe it was a forum post, don't remember) that people make bad fakes on purpose. Let's say you are a tourist and someone wants to sell you a fake fossil. They will first show you one that is very poorly made. If you say it's fake, they'll admit it. They'll say, "Oh you are so smart! Yes actually this is a fake, but I also have some real ones, come look at this..." and then they will pull out another fake that's done much better. Since they've admitted a fake before, you have now let your guard down, and will be much more likely to be deceived. I wonder if the ebay sellers employ the same tactics. Maybe they post the badly done ones every now and then so that people would think they know what fakes look like, and then when they post a better fake, people would think, this one looks so different from the typical fakes, it's probably a real! Exactly. There are so many fake fossils circulating that it's become comical. Of course everyone thinks their own specimen is legit. They've never collected or even seen one in the field but 'compared' to a fake 'look at this detail, and that detail?'... Scams weren't started with the Chinese selling fake fossils. It's been going on for centuries. There is the misconception of some fellow plodding away in his shed somewhere in a remote area. When in reality, it is high tech computer geeks and engineers using advanced techniques. that produce fakes. The Chinese are excellent at what they do. I collect guitars and if I want a replacement neck for a Fender Stratocaster or a bridge for another guitar...it shows up in my mailbox at 1/10th the cost of a new piece. Virtually indistinguishable. These are more difficult to make precise for someone who already has the real thing than producing some Dino eggs or TRex teeth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 They both look better than ebay's Chinese "fossil bird" offerings this week! Man they're not even trying on these! And a few have multiple bids! First one of yours looks a little weird, and has that characteristic "dancing bird" kind of pose the artists over there seem to favor. The second one looks great! And if real, wow, awesome piece! Wait, what the??? Those are fakes?? :D Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Short of an in-hand inspection, the second looks real good, while the first may be real but has some preservation/restoration issues. I'd need to go over them with a loupe before signing-off on them, though. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxytropidoceras Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 (edited) Auspex wrote "I'd need to go over them with a loupe before signing-off on them, though." From what I have seen, before I spent money on one, I would examined in great detail under ultraviolet light. (Oh course with eye protection.) Go see Uv Light Test On Fossils at http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/36343-uv-light-test-on-fossils/ and Mateus, O., M. Overbeeke, and F. Rita, 2008, Dinosaur Frauds, Hoaxes and “Frankensteins”: How to distinguish fake and genuine vertebrate fossils, Journal of Paleontological Techniques. vol. 2, pp. 1-5. http://www.jpaleontologicaltechniques.org/pasta3/JPT%20N2/Pdf/JPT_n002_Jul.pdf Even then, I would likely not buy any expensive fossils from either China or Morocco as I, like many people, do not know enough about what I am either looking at or should be looking for. Yours, Paul H. Edited November 1, 2015 by Oxytropidoceras 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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