Lori LuvsFossils Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Hi Everyone! I've been away from the site for quite awhile, but still hunting. I've unearthed what I think is the business end of an insect, but checking the University of Kentucky website, I'm finding fossil insects of the Pennsylvania era are extremely rare. I've been working layers above and below a coal seam. The fossils are rich in plant material. I keep telling myself where there are plants, there must be bugs. Seems, however, insects aren't common finds. Makes me wonder if I'm off base. All thoughts, comments &/or information would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Not the tail end, but a piece of insect wing - check out the bifurcating veining. Neat find. Keep looking - there has to be more there. Regards, Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I see the bifurcating veins as a sign that this is a leaf fragment, but the color is different from the leaf.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I would also say this could well be a leaf fragment. Based on vein density, it would be a different species from the complete pinnules present on the rock. Colour differences could be related to mineralogical variation, which may occur between plant species (thickness of the lamina has a clear effect on fossilization), or simply between two (closely spaced) locations. I'm not saying this can't be an insect wing, but considering their relative abundance, I think it is best to also consider the more commonly occurring options, such as leaves. Ideas on how to discriminate between the two, for such a small fragment, anyone? 5 Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bone2stone Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I would also say this could well be a leaf fragment. Based on vein density, it would be a different species from the complete pinnules present on the rock. Colour differences could be related to mineralogical variation, which may occur between plant species (thickness of the lamina has a clear effect on fossilization), or simply between two (closely spaced) locations. I'm not saying this can't be an insect wing, but considering their relative abundance, I think it is best to also consider the more commonly occurring options, such as leaves. Ideas on how to discriminate between the two, for such a small fragment, anyone? Very good insight paleoflor. Now this one bugs me. Pun intended. It has an insect look but then it has that flora appearance as well. Insects mimic plant life as we find today, would it not make sense that they had that adaptation in the primordial as well? My WAG, I'll toss a coin. Jess B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Doh! Of course. Thanks JP and Tim.That is a more logical conclusion.I found a drawing of Neuropteris flexuosa, and of Neuropteris evenii that look quite similar. Good call, gentlemen. Partial leaf fragment it is.Regards, Edited November 17, 2015 by Fossildude19 1 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Arthropod segments don't converge, and insect wings have finer veining in proportion. That leaves leaf fragment as the best possibility. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori LuvsFossils Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 I looked & looked again, but couldn't see "leaf".........until the drawing was posted. THANK YOU EVERYONE for taking the time to help an old lady out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 there are insects in the Pennsylvanian of Kentucky. 1981d.pdf 2 "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Hi Lori, neat finds! Have always liked seeing these sorts of examples and trying to figure out what they are...I can see the logic for both possibilities and I'm reminded of a plant example that I have (that is also kind of hiding but beneath other plant remains) and just happens to be from NE Kentucky. I unfortunately dont have anymore provenance on it than that but I attach two photos of it to show you the similarities. Also, when I look at your image closely it makes me think there might be more of the fossil covered up by matrix---is that just an illusion? Is there any way to expose more of it--not sure if you prep finds or not? Thanks again for showing us---love the questions/mysterys that come up here in the forum. Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) Looking at the photo a second time, I noticed something that could perhaps aid identification. Is the feature encircled in yellow, in the photo below (zoom in to see it), a real vein or something apparent, like a shadow or a camera-related artefact? If the structure truly represents a nearly right-angled cross-vein of some sort, then this would be quite difficult to reconcile with a pinnule/plant origin of the fragment. Edited November 18, 2015 by paleoflor 1 Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori LuvsFossils Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Yes, Herb, I've read about that wing! Got me excited thinking I might have found something similar. Thanks for sharing the article. Plant guy, your pieces are lovely. I've toted home numerous rocks and find many layers involved. It's hard to decide where to stop flaking them apart as the suspense of what lies below is sorta like an unopened gift. Thanks for the peek into your collection. Paleoflor, your question prompted me to use a zoom lens. In doing so, I saw a very fine layer covering the fossil. I was able to blow the image up on a large screen and chip away with a tiny needle. I think it's time to give up hope & call it a leaf. Thanks for the push to look closer. Wish I had noticed that layer sooner. You're all amazing detectives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Thanks for showing the new photographs. There remains little room for discussion, now that more of the pinnule is exposed. Entertaining specimen! Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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