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Westmoreland, VA kayak/fossil trip


Kentrcarlson

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A few weeks back on a Tuesday I took a trip down to Westmoreland State Park (Virginia) to scout for kayaking and fossil hunting spots on the Potomac river. I put in at the park beach shortly after 8am and paddled south-eastish into the rising sun along the "bluffy" coast. Temperatures were in the low 30's but the air was still and the boat quickly warmed up. After about two hours of paddling I put ashore onto an unposted beach and tried sifting in some gravelly areas in about 12 inches of water. I sifted for about 30 minutes and came up with three nice large fossil shark teeth (Isurus hastalis), a snaggletooth shark tooth (Hemipristis serra), other smaller shark teeth, eagle ray pavement teeth, a dermal ray scute, and other bigger bone fragments (i could use help with identifying).. I continued the paddle after stowing the fossils, eventually turned, and paddled back to the beach by late afternoon. On the way back, the rising tide obscured most of the really neat potential fossil spots I'd seen on the way out.

Lessons learned.. hunt only on unposted beaches or at the low tide water line, watch the tides, remember to bring booties, and this place has a lot of potential. :)

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Just remember that in Virginia, private property extends one foot below the mean low tide line and along the Stratford property you will get harassed if you are wading in the water at any depth. Unfortunately all of the cliffs south of the pool area at Westmoreland State Park are off limits to people except for a small beach at the south end. The cliff area produced some nice fossils when it was still accessible. The property south of Stratford is also private property and I have heard that at least one of the property owners does not like visitors.

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Thanks for that information. I had assumed that if the land wasn't posted it was good for a gentle go. Sigh, so much for lots of potential.

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Thanks for that information. I had assumed that if the land wasn't posted it was good for a gentle go. Sigh, so much for lots of potential.

I agree. It's very frustrating to know there are so many potential goodies there that are unaccessible. When I was a child you were allowed to hunt under the cliffs at Stratford and we found a LOT. But I also respect that fact that landowners don't want people on their beaches. My family purchases summer passes to Shark Tooth Island aka Hollis Marsh that is just up the river, but the finds are fewer since you can't sort through fresh falls and a lot of big things don't make it that far or get broken.

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The cliff falls are dangerous, and a couple folks have died tragically under them over the years. Also, a few fossil hunters made a habit of digging into the cliff face, which accelerated the erosion. I cannot blame the land owners for denying access.

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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Not trying to be a jerk because I know what it's like to want to explore new spots etc... but you were definitely trespassing and definitely on a beach where had you been caught you would have been politely but firmly asked to leave. If caught a second time you'd likely be leaving with a Sheriff's officer. Westmoreland State Park is adjacent to Stratford Hall which is adjacent to Startford Harbor (the full length of the cliffs). All private and all will prosecute. I've been told by good sources that the Stratford Hall owner used to actually walk the beach with a loaded .45 and wave it around at trespassers.

As for not being posted, storms push trees down river on a regular basis and drag the signs out. That's why you may have see bits of sign post rebar at regular intervals sticking out of the sand. It gets reposted occasionally but the signs typically only last a few months before the storms get them. As Auspex noted multiple reasons exist for not wanting outsiders on the property ranging from summer time boat traffic/alcohol, to HOA liability, property damage to the cliffs (erosion), to the fact that many of property owners are fossil collectors themselves or simply want to enjoy the private community beaches.

Would advise anyone starting out with a yak to stick to the MD side of the river wading below the high tide mark. Lots of good remote spots on the bay and rivers that frankly are more productive anyways (hint... especially the bay).

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Trespassing along the Potomac River on the VA side by boaters has many VA landowners very upset. Virginia landowners in the area you were at are installing cameras in trees on the top of the cliffs which cover their beach area. I know of at least two land owners who are using the camera video to file trespassing and thief complaints against boaters where they can be seen picking things off the beach or digging in cliffs. Just because no one said anything to you on the beach doesn't mean a Westmoreland County sheriff's complaint against you can't be filled using a video. Landowners in the area have also talked to different federal authorities about the trespassing and thief. The federal authorities can't prosecute the trespassing as that is a VA matter for the VA sheriffs to deal with. However they can prosecute you for taking stolen goods (fossils) across state lines (VA to MD) because as soon as you are off the beach you are now in MD. I help both the Calvert Marine Museum and Stratford Hall find and collect museum specimens in the area cliffs. I have seen over the years in these cliffs many museum worthy specimens destroyed by trespassers who either had no clue how to quarry the specimen or who only wanted teeth or ear bones. I have all the phone numbers (Westmoreland County Sheriff, security for Stratford Hall, security for Stratford Harbour, Park Rangers for Westmoreland State Park, Maryland Natural Resources Police, US Coast Guard, US Federal Marshals etc.) needed on my cell to have any trespasser arrested that I see digging in the cliffs in that area. Landowners are also contacting their political representatives pushing for laws that make fossil collecting illegal without land owner written permission or without state or federal permits on the Potomac River. No one wants that to happen but if enough landowners become angry it will happen.

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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The Va property line is not something set in stone by GPS coordinates. It is a changing thing, and that is exactly how it is defined. Right? That line is changing every year and even seasonally. I'd like to see a court of law or someone with video camera surveillance prove exactly where the MLWL is on any particular day for an exact spot. Yeah I understand where it is maybe supposed to be located in my head, but if were going to be sticklers for the exact word of law in Va then you have to consider what I am saying. Its not even defined in an absolute way, so proving its exact location can be pretty tough. Then again, I bet in Va County courts I bet common sense would lose out and your legal battles wouldnt be worth it, but so would be the complainants if they kept fighting you for picking up a few sharks teeth or setting foot on "their" 99% of the time submerged piece of the intertidal zone.

Of course, digging in the cliffs is an egregious violation because its dangerous and almost always destructive, but lets not get ridiculous about a guy who clearly said he was collecting in 1ft of water. Maybe he put his boat ashore during low tide on a day when the tide was lower than normal. Maybe it was a little sandbar a bit further out past the MLWL. We don't know otherwise, so how can we accuse him?

This is getting ridiculous. To all cliff collectors of Md & Va:

Have you never walked up on a slump pile along cliffs in Md like after a huge storm and picked up a nice fossil laying completely exposed on top of it? Have you never popped a shark tooth out of the cliffs that you happened to see protruding somewhere? Have you never even had to even walk up along the cliffs over a slump pile because the tide was high or rough on a particular day? If so, thats trespassing and/or stealing in Md.

So let's try not to be hypocrites at least. BTW I haven't collected in Va in ~10 years. I wouldnt do what the OP did because I dont think its worth it with these ridiculous attitudes of landowners in Va, but all power to him if he didn't do anything dangerous or legally wrong. Or even just morally, in the long run.

---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen---

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It is more confusing and nebulous than even that: LINK

It seems that, technically, if you are below the low tide line, you are not on private property, unless it is ever confirmed that the colonial deeds have legal standing.

In any case, nothing will shield you from an angry (if ill-informed) land owner. Who needs the hassle?

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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I agree that its not worth the hassle. But instead of us all cowering to ridiculous colonial aged ideas, I think that we, as a community, should not be hypocrites and use some common sense. And instead of accusing show some support for OUR HOBBY and what seems like a reasonable and what very easily could have been law-abiding fossil excursion. We have absolutely no evidence to the contrary. "Put ashore" is meaningless regarding the law in this matter.

It is more confusing and nebulous than even that: LINK

It seems that, technically, if you are below the low tide line, you are not on private property, unless it is ever confirmed that the colonial deeds have legal standing.

In any case, nothing will shield you from an angry (if ill-informed) land owner. Who needs the hassle?

---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen---

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The Va property line is not something set in stone by GPS coordinates. It is a changing thing, and that is exactly how it is defined. Right? That line is changing every year and even seasonally. I'd like to see a court of law or someone with video camera surveillance prove exactly where the MLWL is on any particular day for an exact spot. Yeah I understand where it is maybe supposed to be located in my head, but if were going to be sticklers for the exact word of law in Va then you have to consider what I am saying. Its not even defined in an absolute way, so proving its exact location can be pretty tough. Then again, I bet in Va County courts I bet common sense would lose out and your legal battles wouldnt be worth it, but so would be the complainants if they kept fighting you for picking up a few sharks teeth or setting foot on "their" 99% of the time submerged piece of the intertidal zone.

Of course, digging in the cliffs is an egregious violation because its dangerous and almost always destructive, but lets not get ridiculous about a guy who clearly said he was collecting in 1ft of water. Maybe he put his boat ashore during low tide on a day when the tide was lower than normal. Maybe it was a little sandbar a bit further out past the MLWL. We don't know otherwise, so how can we accuse him?

This is getting ridiculous. To all cliff collectors of Md & Va:

Have you never walked up on a slump pile along cliffs in Md like after a huge storm and picked up a nice fossil laying completely exposed on top of it? Have you never popped a shark tooth out of the cliffs that you happened to see protruding somewhere? Have you never even had to even walk up along the cliffs over a slump pile because the tide was high or rough on a particular day? If so, thats trespassing and/or stealing in Md.

So let's try not to be hypocrites at least. BTW I haven't collected in Va in ~10 years. I wouldnt do what the OP did because I dont think its worth it with these ridiculous attitudes of landowners in Va, but all power to him if he didn't do anything dangerous or legally wrong. Or even just morally, in the long run.

Hey Steve

Where are you living these days. I'd like to stop by. Party in your yard for a while. Throw the beer bottles in your front yard. Take a dump in your driveway. Break a window in your house and take a cool lamp that I see in your window. Oh and take that cool rock in your garden. Throw you the finger and cuss you out when you ask me to leave. And then sue you when I trip drunk over your bike when I'm leaving. Oh and also sell the rock and lamp on e-bay. Trespassing is trespassing. Theft is theft. I guess you're OK with some one breaking the law as long as it isn't against you. And I can assure you the cases will hold up in court. We should not encourage any one to break the law no matter how minor we see it. The landowners don't see it the same way. What you don't get is we are heading toward more and more laws making fossil collecting illegal without permits. Look at what has happened on Federal lands. Angry landowners mean new laws.

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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I'm sorry that people are doing that in your backyard. Should be rather easy to get those extreme perpetrators into the trouble they deserve.

Hey Steve

Where are you living these days. I'd like to stop by. Party in your yard for a while. Throw the beer bottles in your front yard. Take a dump in your driveway. Break a window in your house and take a cool lamp that I see in your window. Oh and take that cool rock in your garden. Throw you the finger and cuss you out when you ask me to leave. And then sue you when I trip drunk over your bike when I'm leaving. Oh and also sell the rock and lamp on e-bay. Trespassing is trespassing. Theft is theft. I guess you're OK with some one breaking the law as long as it isn't against you. And I can assure you the cases will hold up in court. We should not encourage any one to break the law no matter how minor we see it. The landowners don't see it the same way. What you don't get is we are heading toward more and more laws making fossil collecting illegal without permits. Look at what has happened on Federal lands. Angry landowners mean new laws.

Marco Sr.

---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen---

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I'm sorry that people are doing that in your backyard. Should be rather easy to get those extreme perpetrators into the trouble they deserve.

Steve

As you know, I've been fossil collecting for over forty years. I want the freedom to fossil collect in as many places as possible. I don't want to see any more laws restricting fossil collecting. But we are heading toward laws that only allow fossil collecting with permits. And if you aren't associated with a museum, university, the USGS etc. you will never get a permit. And once these laws get passed they never get repealed. They only get more restrictive over time. Look at the Federal laws now for Federal land. The amount of fossil collecting along the Potomac River by boat has radically increased over the last few years. And as you know it only takes a few collectors to ruin things for everyone. The collectors digging in the cliffs without permission and trespassing on clearly posted property is causing VA landowners to become extremely angry over the fossil collecting. And I'm not talking just about home owners. You have trespassing on federal land (Washington's Birthplace), VA State land (Westmoreland State Park), and major private property like Stratford Hall. You have fossil collectors posting teeth on Facebook and telling others how to gain access to places like Stratford Hall so they can collect illegally. I deal with these different land owners all the time because I'm on different collecting permits and have written collecting permission for various projects connected with museum collecting and vertebrate studies. I also own property in Stratford Harbour, the very large community next to Stratford Hall. I can tell you that if the trespassing doesn't stop, if the digging in the cliffs doesn't stop, if the refusal of boaters to leave the VA beaches when asked by land owners doesn't stop there will be laws passed. There are already a good number of connected people (a lot of them own waterfront property) who are trying to get the different policing agencies to be more responsive to landowner complaints. There are also more and more people talking about laws banning fossil collecting along the Potomac River because the vast majority of the boaters that come on to the VA beaches are doing so to fossil collect.

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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Is it fair to say there are no beaches one can legally hunt on the Virginia side? A few days ago Carl posted about a collecting trip on the VA side, complete with photos of people on the beach (not in the water hunting around more than a foot below the low tide mark). No one said anything about trespassing in that thread. I'm curious about the discrepancy.

Don

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Is it fair to say there are no beaches one can legally hunt on the Virginia side? A few days ago Carl posted about a collecting trip on the VA side, complete with photos of people on the beach (not in the water hunting around more than a foot below the low tide mark). No one said anything about trespassing in that thread. I'm curious about the discrepancy.

Don

Don

Walt helps the Calvert Marine Museum with a lot of their excavations. Certain landowners on the VA side of the Potomac River have given permission to people like Walt and myself to have access to their property. I know exactly where the pictures were taken. Walt will be helping, as I will also, the owner of the property with groups collecting the property with owner permission in 2016. Unless there is a blowout tide, if you are on a beach in VA along the Potomac River, you are on a VA owner's private property.

Marco Sr..

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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Is it fair to say there are no beaches one can legally hunt on the Virginia side? A few days ago Carl posted about a collecting trip on the VA side, complete with photos of people on the beach (not in the water hunting around more than a foot below the low tide mark). No one said anything about trespassing in that thread. I'm curious about the discrepancy.

Don

The arrangements for this trip involved signed permissions and waivers; it was a rare professional accommodation, and completely above board. :)

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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I am glad we don't have these type of problems here in NC. I am not sure what the laws are concerning property lines and tide lines, but I have never once had an issue with a landowner. Also, for the most part when I have approached a land owner for permission to gain access I have been given that permission.

I would say the best thing to do on the Potomac, is just stay away. It is a shame that the very few, that blatantly disregard all laws and common sense, forge the rules for all of us.

Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt
behind the trailer, my desert
Them red clay piles are heaven on earth
I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt

Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers

 

image.png.0c956e87cee523facebb6947cb34e842.png May 2016  MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png.a47e14d65deb3f8b242019b3a81d8160.png.b42a25e3438348310ba19ce6852f50c1.png May 2012 IPFOTM5.png.fb4f2a268e315c58c5980ed865b39e1f.png.1721b8912c45105152ac70b0ae8303c3.png.2b6263683ee32421d97e7fa481bd418a.pngAug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png.af5065d0585e85f4accd8b291bf0cc2e.png.72a83362710033c9bdc8510be7454b66.png.9171036128e7f95de57b6a0f03c491da.png Oct 2022

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I am glad we don't have these type of problems here in NC. I am not sure what the laws are concerning property lines and tide lines, but I have never once had an issue with a landowner. Also, for the most part when I have approached a land owner for permission to gain access I have been given that permission.

I would say the best thing to do on the Potomac, is just stay away. It is a shame that the very few, that blatantly disregard all laws and common sense, forge the rules for all of us.

Don

Hopefully things in NC don't change as time goes on. Years ago (I've been collecting the Potomac River for over 42 years) VA property owners were very friendly and rarely would refuse permission for fossil collecting on their property. However, over the years the number of fossil collectors has radically increased especially along the Potomac River where there is a very high population density in MD, DC and VA. Also collectors' regard for the property and it's owners has declined over the years with trash, digging/climbing in the cliffs, lawsuits for injuries etc. much more common now. Also large tracts of land have been subdivided and there are many more waterfront homes and piers which put more land owners in direct contact with the fossil collectors. It only takes a couple of ignorant fossil collectors to turn entire communities against fossil collecting.

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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Thanks for the clarification, Marco.

Perhaps it would be a good idea for people to try to remember to mention, when they post about their fossil hunts, if that hunt was on private property with landowners permission or if it was by permit. Photos of beautiful bluffs, unspoiled beaches, and fantastic fossils will be sure to attract attention to those sites. With conflicting state laws about property lines (a few, including VA, put the line below the low tide line, most put it at the mean high tide line) it's not reasonable to assume every internet viewer will know what is and what is not trespassing. Often enough, even the landowner does not know, assuming they own the beach all the way to water, as I encountered one time in Maryland.

Am I correct in assuming the VA law dates to Colonial times and relates to ownership of oyster beds?

There is similar state-to-state variation (and confusion) in regards to navigable waterways and ownership of the river bottom. In Georgia "navigable" means you can float a barge or a paddlewheeler on the river, so there are no navigable streams above the fall line. In that case property lines go to the middle of the stream, and the river bottom belongs to the owner of the adjacent land. In other states, navigable includes floating a raft or small boat, so much smaller streams are considered navigable, and the state owns the bottom and the banks up to the "full pool" water line, so you can legally collect from gravel beds in the stream. It's confusing, but important to know what rules apply where you are collecting.

Don

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...(I've been collecting the Potomac River for over 42 years)...

We probably crossed each others' footprints a lot back then. :)

As collecting pressure mounted over the years, it was easy to see the conflicts with the landowners growing, especially when a few collectors turned it into an extraction industry. Digging into the cliffs caused the most visible impact, and cliff erosion is ever on the minds of those with cliff top homes.

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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I'm glad my family owns a lot in Stratford harbor, it simplifies access greatly.

Given that you have access to the beach area owned by the Stratford Harbor community, does this by default give you permission to collect on other VA beaches not connected to or affiliated with your community, or are you confined to just "your beach"?

Daryl.

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Being a Stratford Harbor land owner does not confer access to other properties.

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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