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GeschWhat

Merritt Island Matrix (Pleistocene) - Scale/Scute/Denticle?

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GeschWhat

More from Sacha's Merritt Island micro matrix...anyone out there know what this is?

Thanks much!

post-17480-0-93422500-1451451499_thumb.jpg

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ynot

Hey Again. Wanted to say -- nice pictures.

Can not help with this ID either, but really like the pictures.

(Also want to see what others have to say!!)

Tony

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Slowpoker

I think it is a scute, I've seen the same design on modern crocs.

A scale would be a little smoother and differently shaped.

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old bones

More from Sacha's Merritt Island micro matrix...anyone out there know what this is?

Thanks much!

Lori, I have 2 of these. They don't match up with the lizard scales that we know are from the anguimorph, (probably) ophisaurid (glass lizard). They could be osteroderms from another species of lizard like a fence lizard etc. There were a lot of species present in the Pleistocene as there are today. Something with a rough, keeled scale might be the source.

I am still trying to pin this one down. When I find out, I will post it. :) Here is one of mine to compare to the 'glass lizard' ones...

post-13648-0-89316000-1451481008_thumb.jpg post-13648-0-38600900-1451481027_thumb.jpg

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GeschWhat

Lori, I have 2 of these. They don't match up with the lizard scales that we know are from the anguimorph, (probably) ophisaurid (glass lizard). They could be osteroderms from another species of lizard like a fence lizard etc. There were a lot of species present in the Pleistocene as there are today. Something with a rough, keeled scale might be the source.

I am still trying to pin this one down. When I find out, I will post it. :) Here is one of mine to compare to the 'glass lizard' ones...

attachicon.gifMI2-Unkn-7.jpg attachicon.gifMI2-lizard-scale-2.jpg

Thanks Julianna, especially for the terminology! It makes searching a lot easier! Just found a great page on fish scales that will probably come in handy at a future date!. I think I have one from a glass lizard also, but haven't done up the pictures (I don't think I quite have your skill set, and putting the photos together takes me forever :wacko: ). Were yours pretty much smooth on the backside?

What are you using to prop your photos at the different angles? I've used the display putty for some of the sturdier bones, but ended up breaking a small rodent molar trying to get better shots from different angles. Some of these little buggers are soooo fragile! Maybe I'll try cutting a small slit in gem jar foam.

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GeschWhat

I think it is a scute, I've seen the same design on modern crocs.

A scale would be a little smoother and differently shaped.

Thanks! It definitely gives off a reptilian vibe.

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GeschWhat

Lori,Your photos are great! Here is a picture I made that illustrates some of the features on this type of osteoderm. Yes, the others that I've found have a smooth underside.

I use a white putty that is not very sticky and works just fine on my micros...I have never had one break while using it. Ancient Bones sent me the stuff that I use. It comes in long rectangular strips...

attachicon.gifAnguimorph-osteoderm.jpg

Love the photo; it is very helpful. You should really put together a book of your own. I learn so much from reading your posts, and quality and layout of your photos are exceptional. I guess the only problem would be that it would be really hard to finish...so many new discoveries.

The putty I used comes in white strips too. I got it from a gemologist friend...most likely the same stuff you're using. I love microfossils, but it can be a bit unnerving manipulating some of the more delicate finds for photos...ugh!

Thanks again!

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MarcoSr

Love the photo; it is very helpful. You should really put together a book of your own. I learn so much from reading your posts, and quality and layout of your photos are exceptional. I guess the only problem would be that it would be really hard to finish...so many new discoveries.

The putty I used comes in white strips too. I got it from a gemologist friend...most likely the same stuff you're using. I love microfossils, but it can be a bit unnerving manipulating some of the more delicate finds for photos...ugh!

Thanks again!

I have damaged a number of fragile micro fossils over the years trying to take pictures. Just handling the really fragile micros can cause a problem. I don't take classic views in a lot of my pictures because I don't want to place the micros even in a very soft substance. So don't feel badly if you don't feel comfortable manipulating some of your micros. Lots of us have the same problems.

Marco Sr.

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old bones

Love the photo; it is very helpful. You should really put together a book of your own. I learn so much from reading your posts, and quality and layout of your photos are exceptional. I guess the only problem would be that it would be really hard to finish...so many new discoveries.

The putty I used comes in white strips too. I got it from a gemologist friend...most likely the same stuff you're using. I love microfossils, but it can be a bit unnerving manipulating some of the more delicate finds for photos...ugh!

Thanks again!

For me, where I have the most trouble with breakage, is when I try to clean the micros. I have busted a few really nice ones when I decide to just get a little of that distracting matrix off... :( That's why you will see a lot of my photos with icky matrix attached. I'd rather have 'em dirty than busted. :)

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GeschWhat

I have damaged a number of fragile micro fossils over the years trying to take pictures. Just handling the really fragile micros can cause a problem. I don't take classic views in a lot of my pictures because I don't want to place the micros even in a very soft substance. So don't feel badly if you don't feel comfortable manipulating some of your micros. Lots of us have the same problems.

Marco Sr.

That makes me feel a little better. At least going through matrix inside under the microscope we don't have to worry about the wind kicking up and blowing our treasures away! :)

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GeschWhat

For me, where I have the most trouble with breakage, is when I try to clean the micros. I have busted a few really nice ones when I decide to just get a little of that distracting matrix off... :( That's why you will see a lot of my photos with icky matrix attached. I'd rather have 'em dirty than busted. :)

Been there, done that! :( This afternoon I was playing around with some junk bones from the matrix that seem to have a calcium film on them. I placed the pieces one at a time in a little white vinegar and watched under the microscope. I seemed to fizz some of it off, but didn't help at all with the hard sandstone-like matrix. I think I'll try it a few more scrap pieces before I attempt to trying it on anything important. Even then, I think I'll photograph everything first before attempting anything. I wonder how the professionals do it...

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GeschWhat

I found something that has a similar vibe to this, so I thought I would post it here rather than starting a new thread. I have attached an updated photo of the original for comparison. Are you still thinking osteoderm on these, Julianna?

Osteoderm-Carapace.jpg

scale1.jpg

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abyssunder

I'm wondering if they can't be fish skull elements. :headscratch:

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GeschWhat
6 minutes ago, abyssunder said:

I'm wondering if they can't be fish skull elements. :headscratch:

They are pretty sturdy for fish bits, but I was wondering about skull elements. I just haven't been able to find anything with a view of the underside.

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abyssunder

What do you think about lizard skull elements / scales ? I think I can see a foramen in the picture. It looks like it goes from one side to the other. :)

 

Osteoderm-Carrapace.thumb.jpg.5703dc966af133b2443d3d5983aa45eb.jpgart08.thumb.jpg.d9b25d67e2ab94aecf6fec870a6164d3.jpg

comparative image from  E. Bruner & D. Constantini. 2009. Head morphology and degree of variation in Lacerta bilineata, Podarcis muralis and Podarcis sicula. Int. J. Morphol. 27(3): 667-676

 

Do you see what I'm thinking about?

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GeschWhat
1 hour ago, abyssunder said:

What do you think about lizard skull elements / scales ? I think I can see a foramen in the picture. It looks like it goes from one side to the other. :)

 

Osteoderm-Carrapace.thumb.jpg.5703dc966af133b2443d3d5983aa45eb.jpgart08.thumb.jpg.d9b25d67e2ab94aecf6fec870a6164d3.jpg

comparative image from  E. Bruner & D. Constantini. 2009. Head morphology and degree of variation in Lacerta bilineata, Podarcis muralis and Podarcis sicula. Int. J. Morphol. 27(3): 667-676

 

Do you see what I'm thinking about?

You may just have something there! I will have to see if I can take a look at it under higher magnification (without losing it). My aunt gave me a dried up lizard she found in her window sill a few years ago. I wish I knew what I did with it. 

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GeschWhat

Bingo! My digital microscope isn't the greatest, but this does look like a foramen. This would be for the parietal eye, correct? Picked up an old Vertebrate Paleontology textbook a couple months ago. While I was paging through it, the first thing I happened upon was discussion of this "third eye" in some lizards.  It is so exciting to find something like this shortly after reading about it. @abyssunder, you are the greatest!!!!

Bottom-half.jpg

Top-half.jpg

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old bones

Well, I'm late to the party, But abbysunder nailed it. I have a few of these and I am convinced that they are lizard/reptile cranial elements as well.

 Here is a similar one that I could find right away. I can't make out the foramen as in yours, but the shape is similar. 

Untitled-1.thumb.jpg.2b6b5e4f67274841ebb2393db34b52f4.jpg

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ynot

@GeschWhat   @old bones

 

Those are a cool find Ladies!:thumbsu:

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GeschWhat
2 hours ago, ynot said:

@GeschWhat   @old bones

 

Those are a cool find Ladies!:thumbsu:

It is AWSOME matrix!

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abyssunder
14 hours ago, GeschWhat said:

Bingo! My digital microscope isn't the greatest, but this does look like a foramen. This would be for the parietal eye, correct?

Yep, it might be the "pf".
You have good pictures,BTW! :)

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abyssunder
14 hours ago, old bones said:

Here is a similar one that I could find right away. I can't make out the foramen as in yours, but the shape is similar. 

Yes, it's similar. :)

 

Osteoderm-Carapace.jpg.3617c39962f0f16770888fec4c0dd8d9.thumb.jpg.72e9caca9cb5bd07f1bf3a80a67cf197.jpgUntitled-1.jpg.c35aa5fce5068c4732bfb09f9ba3e090.thumb.jpg.903ae712184aa4d683eb38c4f2fd0b4e.jpg

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GeschWhat
37 minutes ago, abyssunder said:

Yep, it might be the "pf".
You have good pictures,BTW! :)

You have good ID's! :)

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