Slowpoker Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) Hello, I have turned up a treasure in search of a mosasaur jaw in the United kingdom, I recently bought it, and the seller was very honest, and identified the roots as fake, but the teeth and jaw as genuine. I spotted those, but I require a second opinion just for that stability feeling, and the fact that maybe I and the seller missed something. This fossil is my second, my first being a pachycephalosaur hand claw, which needs prep. Also would the jaw fit together if I mined it out of the matrix? Thank you everyone for your interest and friendliness. Edited December 31, 2015 by Slowpoker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 It is likely that the jaw bones are not mosasaur; possibly not even fossil. The tooth crowns certainly are, but are probably not from the same individual. 1 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 It would be interesting to see this fully prepped from the matrix. My guess would be that the crowns and the rest of the bone fragments are totally unrelated. It would be a fun project to analyze the amount of fabrication and substitution. 1 The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoker Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 It is likely that the jaw bones are not mosasaur; possibly not even fossil. The tooth crowns certainly are, but are probably not from the same individual. Well that's quite unexpected, what makes you say so? It seems to have the rough look of bone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 These jaws are constructed by the thousands, if not millions, using fossil tooth crowns, miscellaneous bones (fossil and recent), plaster, sand, and glue. It is a major industry in Morocco. 1 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Here is a previous conversation on the subject: LINK "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoker Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 These jaws are constructed by the thousands, if not millions, using fossil tooth crowns, miscellaneous bones (fossil and recent), plaster, sand, and glue. It is a major industry in Morocco. I understand that, which is why it took so long to find it, What I am saying is, it does not have the look of putty, plastic and such, the bones looks like quite a few genuine jaws I have seen, and the seller would definitely not lie to me, he stocks many genuine jaws and even a full skeleton of a tethysaur... Maybe you are correct, I cannot ignore the advice of fossil veterans. Very well, I shall question the seller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 One clue that it is a composite it that the matrix is homogeneous and solid; the native material is not so. 1 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Each year the Tucson fossil show is full of Moroccan tents containing thousands of fabricated matrix blocks containing all sorts of assembled fossils including ones similiar to your. The bones and crowns may be real but that's about it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoker Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 One clue that it is a composite it that the matrix is homogeneous and solid; the native material is not so. Ah yes, It looks to be as such. Excuse my stubbornness, I guess I was so excited I denied my instincts. Oh well, the seller will most likely refund or allow me to buy one of their verified jaws, one thing is certain however. I will be posting it here to confirm its authenticity. Thank you auspex for clearing the clouds that clouded my suspicions. (Also thank you JohnJ for the... Idea)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoker Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 Each year the Tucson fossil show is full of Moroccan tents containing thousands of fabricated matrix blocks containing all sorts of assembled fossils including ones similiar to your. The bones and crowns may be real but that's about it. Yes, I know, I was able to visit Tucson, the Moroccan tents were full of composites and fakes, only a few dealers were truly knowledgeable and trustworthy. I was so sure about this jaw, as I had been researching for months about these jaws. Ah well, the seller will probably allow me to buy a verified jaw, and at least my pachy claw is genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Interested to see your Pachycephalosaurus hand claw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoker Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 Interested to see your Pachycephalosaurus hand claw. I've yet to prepare it, but let me see if I have a picture stored somewhere as I'm not at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) I'm going to say that jaw is real. The horizontal gap on the lower part matches with the inside of the jower jaw of a Mosasaur. Though real jaw pieces, it's possible that the front piece doesn't belong to the back piece. A bit of prepping might give this away. If it turns out that the front and back pieces belong together it might be worth prepping it even further and removing it from the matrix. The teeth are obviously Globidens. Better photos are needed to see if any of the teeth belong to the jaw or if they are put there to "enhance" the jaw. The angles of the teeth look slightly weird though. So it wouldn't surprise me if all of the teeth do not belong with the jaw. Edited January 1, 2016 by LordTrilobite Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoker Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 I'm going to say that jaw is real. The horizontal gap on the lower part matches with the inside of the jower jaw of a Mosasaur. Though real jaw pieces, it's possible that the front piece doesn't belong to the back piece. A bit of prepping might give this away. If it turns out that the front and back pieces belong together it might be worth prepping it even further and removing it from the matrix. The teeth are obviously Globidens. Better photos are needed to see if any of the teeth belong to the jaw or if they are put there to "enhance" the jaw. The angles of the teeth look slightly weird though. So it wouldn't surprise me if all of the teeth do not belong with the jaw. Thank you for giving me some hope, there is also a crushed shell next to the jaw fragments, possibly adding to the authenticity. I shall try to get more photos, the seller was very honest and has had around 20 years of fossil experience, so if he was convinced, that was good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoker Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 Also I've got more pictures of the jaw, The seller points out a small composite mass where the teeth are, indicating that the roots are fake and the teeth, jaw and the rest of the matrix are real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Yep, definitely fake "roots". That piece of jaw in the first photo looks correct btw. The horizontal lines fit with the surface of a mosasaur jaw. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoker Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 Yep, definitely fake "roots". That piece of jaw in the first photo looks correct btw. The horizontal lines fit with the surface of a mosasaur jaw. That's great news to hear, but I don't understand how the others on this forum named it a fake. I suppose it was because of the matrix and the roots. Thank you once again, I will post the results of my prepping once it arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 That's great news to hear, but I don't understand how the others on this forum named it a fake. I suppose it was because of the matrix and the roots. Thank you once again, I will post the results of my prepping once it arrives. Given the fact that the roots are obviously faked and all the implications for doing do, I still contend that it's most likely that the pieces are unrelated. To make the roots, all the matrix would be contrived...which means placing bits of bone where you need them to show. It was all done on the premise to create a piece of greater value to sell, not something carefully prepped to reveal the natural arrangement of bone deposition. The only way to know for sure what is real, related, and fabricated is to make a project of removing everything from the fake matrix. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoker Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 Given the fact that the roots are obviously faked and all the implications for doing do, I still contend that it's most likely that the pieces are unrelated. To make the roots, all the matrix would be contrived...which means placing bits of bone where you need them to show. It was all done on the premise to create a piece of greater value to sell, not something carefully prepped to reveal the natural arrangement of bone deposition. The only way to know for sure what is real, related, and fabricated is to make a project of removing everything from the fake matrix. Well the item was identified by a few people as genuine, the seller himself identified the roots as fake, so I am betting its genuine. However I understand that Is the only way, and thus we shall find out on Tuesday, when it arrives and I dig into it. If it's fake, I will probably be refunded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 One of my sons years ago bought a single rooted mosasaur tooth with several small jaw pieces from Morocco in a small matrix slab that looked great for only a couple of dollars. He put the piece in water just to see if water might dissolve the matrix and free the tooth. Everything dissolved almost immediately except for the tooth crown. Back then they used water soluble glue for their fakes. Most fakes now are not made using water soluble glue because too many folks had the same experience as my son. Marco Sr. 1 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoker Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 One of my sons years ago bought a single rooted mosasaur tooth with several small jaw pieces from Morocco in a small matrix slab that looked great for only a couple of dollars. He put the piece in water just to see if water might dissolve the matrix and free the tooth. Everything dissolved almost immediately except for the tooth crown. Back then they used water soluble glue for their fakes. Most fakes now are not made using water soluble glue because too many folks had the same experience as my son. Marco Sr. Years ago? This fake jaw business has gone on for that long? I am just happy that nearly all of my jaw except the roots is real. I'll break most of the matrix down minus the part under the jaw, dissolve the fake roots and recover the teeth, stick together the jaw if possible and voila! I'll make a new post on Tuesday if this one dies that will show the results of my prep. Thank you for sharing your experience, luckily the dealer I've found is very trustworthy and reliable, and the best part? His company will soon stock paleo-bond products... In the UK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Years ago? This fake jaw business has gone on for that long? My son's fake from Morocco was purchased probably twenty years ago. So just because someone purchased a piece from Morocco a while back doesn't mean it isn't fake. As the demand for Moroccan fossils has increased the number of fakes has radically increased. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoker Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 My son's fake from Morocco was purchased probably twenty years ago. So just because someone purchased a piece from Morocco a while back doesn't mean it isn't fake. As the demand for Moroccan fossils has increased the number of fakes has radically increased. Marco Sr. I realise what your saying, it is risky buying Moroccan fossils, even at shows like Tucson you find their Moroccan tents piled with composites and replicas. That's why I signed up here in the first place, so I could have aid when distinguishing fake from real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 The history of "artful recreations" from Morocco goes back to the beginning of tourism to the area. There are many such "lying stones" gracing Victorian collections. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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