The Curse of the Moroccan Fossils

[lolman1c]

Hello Everyone,

I've decided to start this thread after originally creating this thread. The thread goes into discussion on the idea of a "fake" Mosasaur Jaw from Morocco. The discussion concluded that the Jaw itself is fake but the teeth are real. However, many people (including experts selling the fossil and previous buyers) didn't know that the vast majority of the fossils found like that Jaw were in fact mostly fake. They are often marked down as Composits which the sellers believing them to be made up from parts of a Mosasaur and the reset into a new matrix. This is wrong as the vast majority are made from 'goat bones' and 'dust' and glued together. As it turns out Morocco is a popular place for fossils but locals have found ways to increase the price of cheaper end fossils to sell for higher amounts, this is not limited to Mosasaurs and goes for all fossils found in Morocco. For example with the Jaws they often don't even use good teeth and mostly pick the cheapest broken teeth that have 1 good side. Click on these articles for more detail on fakes and how they make them.

Article 1

Article 2

Continuing from this idea I thought I would produce this thread to not only highlight information for all future buyers but also give examples of fakes, start discussions about the fossils and how to discover if they are the natural matrix or not and also talk about general Morocco fossil things.

Hope this and this thread helps all future buyers,

Lolman

[lolman1c]

Fake Item #1: Mosasaur Jaw from Morocco:

This first thing I will talk about is Mosasaur jaws and the one talked about in the thread.

Things to note:

Real?

The only things real about this fossil is the crowns of the teeth (as seen below)

Note all Jaws that look like this are most likely fake (I would say about 90%+)

How it is made:

The jaw itself would not look like that and the entire thing is too organised to be natural. It's made by using local sand and gluing it together to produce a base in an oval shape. From here they ground up goats bone and rock and mold it into a jaw shape using plaster. They then place it on the base and put the fake jaw and and genuine teeth into position. From here they use more crushed bone to link the teeth to the jaw and then fill in the rest of the cracks with more glued sand stone.

Price:

These can go on sale anywhere from $20 to $100+ depending on the amount of teeth, if the seller knows how it was made or a seller just trying to get some extra money out of an unknowing buyer.

Extra Notes:

1. You might be thinking "Hmmm, still a nice display piece though and $20 doesn't seem so bad..." but you have to remember that this method was created to intentionally faked a natural fossil in order to scam unknown buyers. The shape and texture of the jaw is often wrong and perverts it into something that is unnatural and useless for examination.

2. To further the above point, you might actually be buying cracked and very cheap teeth. As you can only see one end of the fossil it's most likely the person producing the fake has used the cheapest possible components and positioned it in such a way so you and only see the good side of the teeth.

3. Finally, there have been discussions online about how to 100% check if the matrix and fossils are real. The best way to do this is soak the fossil in water. If it is fake then the adhesive will fall apart and cause the entire thing to turn to mud and slush. The only thing remaining will be the genuine fossils. This is a good way to extract the fossil but if the fossil is cracked it might break it.... Note this method has not been tried by me yet and I have no confirmation on anyone trying this and it working (might want to discuss this below).

Edited January 4, 2016 by lolman1c

[lolman1c]

Fake Item #2: Fossils in Matrix:

Here is where things get difficult and the curse of Moroccan fossils can take effect. These fossils below are genuine, however, the Matrix they are set in, is not. Unlike the above Jaw, the fossils are set in very natural looking ways and if not for the seller stating that the fossil was reset in a new Matrix, many buyers would be unaware. In red is the genuine fossils.

Things to Note:

How it is made:

The matrix is made in a similar fashion to the above Jaw. The sand is glued using, most likely, PVA and then the fossils placed down with more sand layers upon it to make it look more natural. The higher layers of sand tend to be less dense and lose, making them lighter.

The tooth:

The tooth is real but notice it has a crack. Most likely, again like the Jaw, it is made out of cheaper teeth that looks better when re-set in a new unnatural Matrix. Many of the fakes online have cracks in the teeth and you can often see plaster inside of those cracks and also the fake matrix and the creator tries to glue them together to improve the visuals.

Price:

However, these do make for better and cheaper display fossils only selling for about $10-20, if you are okay with it as artificial art rather than natural art.

Edited January 5, 2016 by lolman1c

[lolman1c]

Fake Item #3: The Moroccan't Mosasaur Tooth Root:

This, most like the Jaw, will be discussing how the Moroccans fake the rare tooth roots sometimes found with Mosasaur teeth. Image taken from this thread.

Things to Note:

Real?:

Again, sadly like the Jaw, the only thing real about these fossils is the crown of the tooth (the darker area). Other than that, the entire thing is made of pure modern materials.

How it is made:

The base is glued sand, the cheap, often cracked and broken, tooth is places in a position where you can't see the crack, and a fake root is added, made of crushed modern bones that are glued and plastered. Sometimes you don't get the matrix and the bone is plastered onto a good tooth.

How to Spot if it is fake?:

The first way to spot the fake is look at the matrix. If it is a nice oval loaf shape then is it probably a fake. Secondly is the root itself. Although both fake and real roots will be textured the the real root will have open pores. And unlike the real root fakes might have air bubbles. The gaps in the tooth, just below the genuine tooth and on the fake root will also be filled with plaster.

Please Note Page 2 for discussion on this more.

Price:

These tend to go for much higher as seller pass them off as "rare" items for around $20-50.

Extra Notes:

I would say these are bad for display, their price makes them borderline scams and the root often looks nothing like a real root (as people produce what they thing it will look like rather than what it actually would look like).

Edited January 6, 2016 by lolman1c

[lolman1c]

These are things I have only researched myself and are the majority of fossils found on Ebay. I would suggest putting down your own examples and numbering them like I have so people can easily spot them when trawling through this thread.

I think for a discussion starter we should look at some more Morocco fossils that aren't Mosasaur. Here is a Plesiosaur tooth. The description says "This impressive specimen is as pictured and the Plesiosuar tooth measures 41mm long in a natural phosphate matrix block."

What do you guys think?:

[LordTrilobite]

Actually, I'm gonna say that second item is likely mostly or completely real.

Such vertebrae aren't worth the trouble to prep out of matrix just to put them back in a random fashion again. No. Those are definitely real and in situ. The Mosasaur tooth... It's certainly possible that it's been placed there to enhance the block with the verts. But honestly it mostly looks like a natural composition. The only thing that looks slightly iffy is the left edge of the tooth. the matrix is quite varied in colour and it's contents. So there isn't much to suggest that this piece has been altered at all. It just looks like a typical authentic piece.

The last piece with the Zarafasaura tooth looks real. There are no red flags that suggest any tampering.

Item 1 and 3 though, are indeed good examples of classic fakes.

[ZiggieCie]

Great info.

[Auspex]

IMO, the mosasaur tooth has been added to #2, a natural block with vertebrae. It is possibly the case with the Plesiosaur tooth too.

[JohnJ]

Nothing beats seeing the real morphology of properly prepared specimens. LINK

Another thing to keep in mind, regarding supposedly "real" specimens, is the degree of preparation. For example, there is not much honest rationale for leaving small amounts of soft "matrix" covering contiguous areas of a fossil—when the rest of it is nicely prepared! To me, it is a red flag that stands in contradiction to the preparation process and the work done on the other areas of a fossil. I always silently question, "why would they stop the prep at this point when dealing with a soft matrix?"

[jpc]

Nice topic and discussion. I disagree with the "soak it in water" treatment to see if it is real. If the Moroccans are using an acetone based consolidant (and I believe some are) then water will do nothing. And for an iffy specimen, say the above verts and tooth, you may destroy a cool specimen. I haven't tried it, but does this real matrix dissolve in water. I have mentioned this sort of thing before on here, but take a questionable specimen to the local hospital and see if you can have the CT folks CT scan it... for free of course... between trauma victims. My experience has been that most CT folks like to play with their machines and look into non-human things.

[LordTrilobite]

Nothing beats seeing the real morphology of properly prepared specimens. LINK

Another thing to keep in mind, regarding supposedly "real" specimens, is the degree of preparation. For example, there is not much honest rationale for leaving small amounts of soft "matrix" covering contiguous areas of a fossil—when the rest of it is nicely prepared! To me, it is a red flag that stands in contradiction to the preparation process and the work done on the other areas of a fossil. I always silently question, "why would they stop the prep at this point when dealing with a soft matrix?"

Typically the bones are very fragile. Sometimes moreso than the matrix itself. Especially the fish bones are rediculously fragile. So it doesn't surprise me at all to see such fish vert half prepped. Having only a bit exposed leaves them a lot more stable. Teeth of course are a lot more sturdy in general and are easier to prep. But it's pretty typical to see blocks of real matrix with a ton of fish bones and some teeth in it with only some basic prepping. It wouldn't be worth the money to spend too much time on lesser pieces I would think.

Nice topic and discussion. I disagree with the "soak it in water" treatment to see if it is real. If the Moroccans are using an acetone based consolidant (and I believe some are) then water will do nothing. And for an iffy specimen, say the above verts and tooth, you may destroy a cool specimen. I haven't tried it, but does this real matrix dissolve in water. I have mentioned this sort of thing before on here, but take a questionable specimen to the local hospital and see if you can have the CT folks CT scan it... for free of course... between trauma victims. My experience has been that most CT folks like to play with their machines and look into non-human things.

I have tried this technique on several pieces from the phosphate beds of Morocco. One time a natural matrix block completely disintegrated leaving perfectly clean bones. The water made the bones rediculously fragile though. And on other natural pieces of matrix the water only made the matrix a little bit softer and it didn't help in the prepping process at all.

I've also tried water on pieces where I knew they were either repaired or doctored. I have not tried completely submerging them though. But naturally as different types of glues and consolidation are used, they react differently. One repaired mosasaur jaw had some extra glue I needed to remove and adding water made it all snotty so it was a lot easier to scrape away and clean. Other glues don't react at all.

Short of a CT scanner, in my experience, viewing a piece under the microscope and actually prepping a piece is the best way to know for sure where something has been altered.

[lolman1c]

Actually, I'm gonna say that second item is likely mostly or completely real.

It's a confirmed fake matrix by the seller, whether this means the tooth was not naturally there or the entire thing is fake is still unknown.

As for using water, I am glad you guys are discussing this. I personally would never risk damaging the fossils themselves but I can understand why people might try.

As for the Zarafasaura, the seller I bought it from I would say is trust worthy. He sells two kinds of Moroccan fossils. One that says "In natural matrix" (Like that one), where he confirms the matrix is natural, and one that says "In matrix" which suggests it is a fake matrix.

After questioning him it turns out he only sells natural matrix blocks and his wording is him just being inconsistent.

Edited January 5, 2016 by lolman1c

[Troodon]

Nice topic, all in all goes to show you how good the Moroccans have gotten in fabricating matrix blocks that have an attractive assemblage of fossils that sell.

My tips:

Bottom line to all collectors and nothing new is to continue to be very suspect of any matrix blocks from Morocco.

Post an item here, if possible "before you buy" to obain a broader look at it. Members are happy to help all collectors.

Make sure that anything purchased can be returned.

Don't trust that the supplier you're buying from really knows what has been done to alter the item.

Good seller feedback ratings on auction sites can be misleading. Buyers that have purchased junk don't necessarily know it until well after they have posted a feedback.

[Troodon]

As for the Zarafasaura, the seller I bought it from I would say is trust worthy. He sells two kinds of Moroccan fossils. One that says "In natural matrix" (Like that one), where he confirms the matrix is natural, and one that says "In matrix" which suggests it is a fake matrix.

Sorry but how can you say the supplier is trustworthy when you have decipher his description to get an accurate understanding of what's going on. New collectors are not going to understand the nuances of those words.

[lolman1c]

Sorry but how can you say the supplier is trustworthy when you have decipher his description to get an accurate understanding of what's going on. New collectors are not going to understand the nuances of those words.

Hmmmm, that is very true... I think because I know a "matrix block" which I presume means fake and "natural matrix" which he confirms as the matrix it made sense to me but a buyer who sees matrix block might never thing twice. But the seller has 5000+ positive ratings and from what I can tell on every other item he is very honest.

Here is another item "fossil Fish Jaw - Enchodus" in which he describes it in a "matrix block" this doesn't mean it isn't the natural matrix but the two different ways he describes the items makes me think it might be altered. However, unlike the 100% confirmed fakes, you do see a lot more natural bones and random pieces in the matrix, I might question the seller himself. After questioning the seller I can confirm this is natural and his use of terms "natural matrix" and "block matrix" is him just being inconsistent.

Edited January 5, 2016 by lolman1c

[LordTrilobite]

That block looks completely real to me. No red flags. There seem to be nodules and bones near the jaw piece. Not to mention that it's more effort than it's worth to prep such a fragile jaw out of the matrix only to put it back in. It wouldn't make any sense.

I never pay much attention to descriptions, except where it's from and how old it is ofc. I trust my own eyes more than a seller I don't know. "matrix block" doesn't mean anything imo. A photo is worth a thousand words.

[lolman1c]

That block looks completely real to me. No red flags. There seem to be nodules and bones near the jaw piece. Not to mention that it's more effort than it's worth to prep such a fragile jaw out of the matrix only to put it back in. It wouldn't make any sense.

I never pay much attention to descriptions, except where it's from and how old it is ofc. I trust my own eyes more than a seller I don't know. "matrix block" doesn't mean anything imo. A photo is worth a thousand words.

I read the description because I like to see how sellers word things... and if they out right lie I like to call them out...

[-Andy-]

For reference sake, here's a real mosasaur jaw.

It broke apart when it arrived, but at least it showed me the seed teeth within.

[LordTrilobite]

I read the description because I like to see how sellers word things... and if they out right lie I like to call them out...

Fair enough.

Edited January 5, 2016 by LordTrilobite

[Troodon]

Has I said in my earlier post I don't trust feedback ratings. People just don't know what they have and typically respond right after they receive an item and there is no tool to change it.

I'm like LordTrilobite, descriptions are just guides with some useful information. The photo is the key for my purchase decision.

On your fish jaw it looks good to me. The economics to alter an item like this just does not make sense

[lolman1c]

I agree... after looking through the vast majority of his items from Morocco I can't find a single one that looks altered like the rest of them.... This guy differently seems genuine and the prices seem right for these objects (all between $10-20). I think this is why the teeth are faked so much... if you have 6 broken $1 teeth you can turn them into a $20-50 dollar piece in less than 5 hours using the methods on #1.

However, here is another piece that is said to be a fake matrix and fake root on the tooth by the seller from a different seller (selling for $40)

Edited January 5, 2016 by lolman1c

[Troodon]

A quick look it appears real to me as well as the root. Tooth might have been inserted but would have to inspect it first hand

[HamptonsDoc]

Thanks for all the information and just before Tucson! I will definitely be re-reading this thread before I go in a few weeks. As a new collector I'm often fooled into purchasing fakes (as evident from my threads in "is it real"). In the past 6 months i've learned hoards of information from you guys. Thanks again!

[lolman1c]

A quick look it appears real to me as well as the root. Tooth might have been inserted but would have to inspect it first hand

The seller says this:

"QUICK NOTE:

Most fossil pieces sold have teeth embedded by local craftsmen in matrix taken from Sahara Desert in the Oulad Abdoun Basin near the Khouribga phosphate plateau region of Morocco, North Africa. THE ONLY STRUCTURES that are natural are the teeth..The root area and jaw regions are "modeled" to represent this region of the tooth. The bones found in that particular region are pieced together to "represent" the jaw AND tooth rooth of this marine reptile....the bones could be anything...from actual Mososaurus, Plesiosaur bones to Enchodus bones. Rarely will a collector find teeth and jaw even remotely close to this.. This representation is great for someone starting out collecting fossils....the teeth are real....the rest is for the most part fabricated from pieces of bone. Still pretty cool though."

Although he could be saying this as an insurance because he genuinely doesn't know.

Edited January 5, 2016 by lolman1c

[LordTrilobite]

The seller says this:

"QUICK NOTE:

Most fossil pieces sold have teeth embedded by local craftsmen in matrix taken from Sahara Desert in the Oulad Abdoun Basin near the Khouribga phosphate plateau region of Morocco, North Africa. THE ONLY STRUCTURES that are natural are the teeth..The root area and jaw regions are "modeled" to represent this region of the tooth. The bones found in that particular region are pieced together to "represent" the jaw AND tooth rooth of this marine reptile....the bones could be anything...from actual Mososaurus, Plesiosaur bones to Enchodus bones. Rarely will a collector find teeth and jaw even remotely close to this.. This representation is great for someone starting out collecting fossils....the teeth are real....the rest is for the most part fabricated from pieces of bone. Still pretty cool though."

Although he could be saying this as an insurance because he genuinely doesn't know.

I think in this particular case at least half of the matrix is real. between the Zarafasaura tooth and the Squalicorax tooth there are some fish bones fairly densely packed together. I think that this was an original piece of matrix where two teeth were added on either side.

The Zarafasaura tooth definitely looks suspicious, on the convex side there looks to be an anomaly parallel to the tooth wherefake martix was added. There is a slight discolouration as well.