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Velociraptor vs Protoceratops (Fighting Dinosaurs) Video


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So I found a cool little video on how the fighting dinosaurs probably ended up in that position. Enjoy!

"Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you" Job 12:8

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Pretty cool theory on how the fighting dinosaurs got in that position!

"Welcome...To Jurassic Park!" -Richard Attenborough

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Cool, but it suffers from a common flaw I have seen all over the place in paleo-reconstructions... They made the landscape look just like it does now. NO.. it was a sandy desert... no cliffs and they were supposedly killed by a sandstorm, not a rockfall, which implies they were fighting in a sandstorm. Otherwise.. nice graphics.

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Cool, but it suffers from a common flaw I have seen all over the place in paleo-reconstructions... They made the landscape look just like it does now. NO.. it was a sandy desert... no cliffs and they were supposedly killed by a sandstorm, not a rockfall, which implies they were fighting in a sandstorm. Otherwise.. nice graphics.

Yeah it's good, a few misconceptions, but pretty good :P

"Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you" Job 12:8

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Always a delight to see a Velociraptor these days not depicted trussed up in feathers like a Turkey!

Whats interesting about this amazing death match scene they were captured in is you can literally see the raptor frozen in the act of the kill , slashing its prey's throat with its killing claw and yet we're expected to swallow a theory that they used this lethal weapon just to snare their prey like a buzzard grasping a bunny rabbit.

If you want to study a dinosaur's behaviour then study the dinosaur rather than theorising based on observations of an entirely different creature living 80 million years later and then presenting it as official fact. Still my favourite fossil discovery ever though, its got to be.

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Cool, but it suffers from a common flaw I have seen all over the place in paleo-reconstructions... They made the landscape look just like it does now. NO.. it was a sandy desert... no cliffs and they were supposedly killed by a sandstorm, not a rockfall, which implies they were fighting in a sandstorm. Otherwise.. nice graphics.

yes I think the assumption was they got buried by a collapsing sand dune they had disturbed in the ruckus. Actually when you look at a lot of the amazing dino discoveries from the Gobi a lot of them were presumed to have been killed by either a sandstorm or collapsing dune ; the perils of desert life in the Creataceous, if the Tarbosaurus doesnt swallow you up the landscape itself will !

In contrast American fossils often seem to be the victims of river drownings or in England even falling down cave shafts. It adds an interesting element to the discovery all the eons later to think how the specimen you see in your hand actually met its doom.

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Always a delight to see a Velociraptor these days not depicted trussed up in feathers like a Turkey!

Whats interesting about this amazing death match scene they were captured in is you can literally see the raptor frozen in the act of the kill , slashing its prey's throat with its killing claw and yet we're expected to swallow a theory that they used this lethal weapon just to snare their prey like a buzzard grasping a bunny rabbit.

If you want to study a dinosaur's behaviour then study the dinosaur rather than theorising based on observations of an entirely different creature living 80 million years later and then presenting it as official fact. Still my favourite fossil discovery ever though, its got to be.

Yeah, I actually have a great video for you about Velociraptor! They determined that Velociraptor, and other dromaeosaurs, used the killing claw for puncturing rather than slashing. The claw was razor sharp on the tip and dull on the bottom, making it perfect for stabbing and puncturing, and not very good for slashing. They used the claw to puncture the jugular or the windpipe, thus killing it's prey quickly and efficiently. The Fighting Dinosaurs fossil actually has the Velociraptor's foot in the neck of the Protoceratops, where it was likely puncturing the jugular or windpipe, or other vital arteries in the throat/neck.

"Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you" Job 12:8

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Yeah, I actually have a great video for you about Velociraptor! They determined that Velociraptor, and other dromaeosaurs, used the killing claw for puncturing rather than slashing. The claw was razor sharp on the tip and dull on the bottom, making it perfect for stabbing and puncturing, and not very good for slashing. They used the claw to puncture the jugular or the windpipe, thus killing it's prey quickly and efficiently. The Fighting Dinosaurs fossil actually has the Velociraptor's foot in the neck of the Protoceratops, where it was likely puncturing the jugular or windpipe, or other vital arteries in the throat/neck.

thanks, yeah thats kind of how I envisioned it. When I looked at a velociraptor cast in Brussels its hard to buy the idea recounted in Jurassic park that they could just disembowel a full size dinosaur with one hack of its claw but the description you give seems very plausible.

Its a shame the killing claw is a fossil so hard to come by actually, the only one I've managed to get is from that frustratingly undescribed Moroccan dromaeosaur.

I think if I could wish for one fossil in the world a nice Deinonychus sickle claw would be the one to go for.

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just to snare their prey like a buzzard grasping a bunny rabbit.

If you want to study a dinosaur's behaviour then study the dinosaur rather than theorising based on observations of an entirely different creature living 80 million years later and then presenting it as official fact. Still my favourite fossil discovery ever though, its got to be.

What is a buzzard in the UK? Here we call them vultures, and they would rarely ever grasp a living rabbit.

Birds are hardly "entirely different" from raptors (dinosaurs). Large raptors (birds) generally kill with their claws even though their beaks look so dangerous. Preconceived notions when determining actual use can lead to errors.

Brent Ashcraft

ashcraft, brent allen

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What is a buzzard in the UK?...

The "Buzzard" of Europe is a Buteo (like our Red-tailed Hawk).

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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The "Buzzard" of Europe is a Buteo (like our Red-tailed Hawk).

Thanks, common names...........

ashcraft, brent allen

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thanks, yeah thats kind of how I envisioned it. When I looked at a velociraptor cast in Brussels its hard to buy the idea recounted in Jurassic park that they could just disembowel a full size dinosaur with one hack of its claw but the description you give seems very plausible.

Its a shame the killing claw is a fossil so hard to come by actually, the only one I've managed to get is from that frustratingly undescribed Moroccan dromaeosaur.

I think if I could wish for one fossil in the world a nice Deinonychus sickle claw would be the one to go for.

Yeah a Deinonychus or Utahraptor killing claw would be amazing to own. Also, the Moroccan theropod "Deltadromeus" isn't really a dromaeosaur. The teeth are unlike dromaeosaur teeth, they are not recurved and the serrations are the same on both sides. Dromaeosaur teeth are recurved and have larger serrations on one side of the tooth and smaller on the other. This unidentified theropod can be classified as an Abelisaurid but nothing else can be concluded until skeletal material is found

"Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you" Job 12:8

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The "Buzzard" of Europe is a Buteo (like our Red-tailed Hawk).

Yeah sorry maybe if I'd have said hawk it would have translated better, just less alliterative effect! The buzzards I see in England like their bunny rabbits anyway.

It was in relation anyway to the revisionist argument presented recently that dromeosaurs used their killing claw like talons of modern birds of prey to pin down their prey while they consume them. This argument just doesn't hold when you apply it to this kind of scenario though when you've got a Velociraptor in combat with another dinosaur of far greater mass than itself.

A hawk just wouldnt attempt to take on a creature of this size despite being of a similar size to Velociraptor Mongoliensis. The Protoceratops is bigger and approx 8 times heavier than a velociraptor (calulated on the herbivore being estimated to be 2 thirds fully grown in this example) which has tiny teeth less than half an inch; the only way the raptor could hope to kill it is to tear it up with its claws , especially the most lethal weapon in its armoury : the killing claw. The evolutionary chasm between one raptor and another just makes the direct comparison between the 2 in this way seem too implausible for me.

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Yeah a Deinonychus or Utahraptor killing claw would be amazing to own. Also, the Moroccan theropod "Deltadromeus" isn't really a dromaeosaur. The teeth are unlike dromaeosaur teeth, they are not recurved and the serrations are the same on both sides. Dromaeosaur teeth are recurved and have larger serrations on one side of the tooth and smaller on the other. This unidentified theropod can be classified as an Abelisaurid but nothing else can be concluded until skeletal material is found

Yes this is a bit of a hazy area, Deltadromeus certainly is no dromaeosaur the way I understand it and certainly doesnt have the killing toe claw but I think it is recognised there is a dromaeosaur species that existed within the same ecosystem at one time or another.

The problem is without a clearly identified full skeleton of each genus the Dromeosaur indet. Abelisaur indet. and Deltadromeus all seem to be lumped in together indiscriminately, often because it makes it easier to sell fossils it seems.

If there's one new development I'd like to see in the world of dinosaur fossils in 2016 its the discovery of a fully intact skeleton of each so you can at least label your fossils with something a bit more concrete! Morocco just seems to be a place where commerce rules over science as far as fossils are concerned though, I'm sure we can all agree on that point .

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Modern birds of prey use their talons (especially the hallux) to pierce; the trauma is massive.

Watch a hawk on a kill as it fishes around for vital organs!

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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Yes this is a bit of a hazy area, Deltadromeus certainly is no dromaeosaur the way I understand it and certainly doesnt have the killing toe claw but I think it is recognised there is a dromaeosaur species that existed within the same ecosystem at one time or another.

The problem is without a clearly identified full skeleton of each genus the Dromeosaur indet. Abelisaur indet. and Deltadromeus all seem to be lumped in together indiscriminately, often because it makes it easier to sell fossils it seems.

If there's one new development I'd like to see in the world of dinosaur fossils in 2016 its the discovery of a fully intact skeleton of each so you can at least label your fossils with something a bit more concrete! Morocco just seems to be a place where commerce rules over science as far as fossils are concerned though, I'm sure we can all agree on that point .

Yeah, you are correct. A lot of sellers label these Moroccan teeth as "Deltadromeus Raptor Velocriaptor Cousin Tooth" so that inexperienced buyers wil;l be more likely to buy them. Say you see two teeth for sale: One is labeled as Acheroraptor tooth, the other says Unknown theropod tooth from Hell Creek. You would be more likely to buy the one assigned to a specific genus, rather than the one labeled as unknown. Sellers do this all the time, especially with Moroccan fossils. I really hope so too that they find some skeletal material of the dinosaur that these teeth belong to. It will be groundbreaking in the field of paleontology and give us a better understanding of what life was like in Africa back then.

"Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you" Job 12:8

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Modern birds of prey use their talons (especially the hallux) to pierce; the trauma is massive.

Watch a hawk on a kill as it fishes around for vital organs!

That's really cool! They are smart animals, instinctively going for the vitals. Also, lions and tigers and other big cats, when hunting, go for the neck because they know that the vitals there will make the kill quick and easy. One good stab in the jugular or airway from a Velociraptor's killing claw and the prey will bleed out or suffocate quickly. I think it is the most plausible and proveable hypothesis.

"Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you" Job 12:8

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Yeah a Deinonychus or Utahraptor killing claw would be amazing to own. Also, the Moroccan theropod "Deltadromeus" isn't really a dromaeosaur. The teeth are unlike dromaeosaur teeth, they are not recurved and the serrations are the same on both sides. Dromaeosaur teeth are recurved and have larger serrations on one side of the tooth and smaller on the other. This unidentified theropod can be classified as an Abelisaurid but nothing else can be concluded until skeletal material is found

They have Abelisaurid like teeth, but not necessarily Abrlisaurs. The teeth have similar characteristics but the species can't be classified until more discoveries are found. As you previously stated this is a common problem in Morocco.

I think the bigger mystery in my opinion is where are all the herbivores from the Kem Kem Beds? We see tons and tons and tons of Carch, spino, and theropod teeth coming from here but hardly see herbivores. The only herbivore known from the formation is Rebbachisaurus. With all teeth and bones that can be found there, you would expect herbivores to be found EVENTUALLY. Anyone have any opinions on the matter?

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They have Abelisaurid like teeth, but not necessarily Abrlisaurs. The teeth have similar characteristics but the species can't be classified until more discoveries are found. As you previously stated this is a common problem in Morocco.

I think the bigger mystery in my opinion is where are all the herbivores from the Kem Kem Beds? We see tons and tons and tons of Carch, spino, and theropod teeth coming from here but hardly see herbivores. The only herbivore known from the formation is Rebbachisaurus. With all teeth and bones that can be found there, you would expect herbivores to be found EVENTUALLY. Anyone have any opinions on the matter?

Yeah that's true. I'm really eager for them to uncover some skeletal material soon. I love my Moroccan theropod tooth, one of my favorite teeth in my collection, yet I don't know what dino it came from haha :P

Yeah that is strange. Aren't there sauropod teeth found in the Kem Kem though? Rebbachisaurus I believe? Is it just known by teeth? It's really weird that they only find theopod material. Maybe they just aren't looking in the right place? Some millionaire should fund a massive upheavel of the area there to see if they can finally find some skeletal material. Also, maybe because of the location, material didn't fossilize well? Just teeth? I have no idea, just a suggestion.

"Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you" Job 12:8

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I think it can be said without fear of contradiction that these are seriously over-built for mere grasping:

post-423-0-51420900-1455284593_thumb.jpg

A raptor needs to quickly kill its prey, not just hold it...

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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Yep I certainly wouldnt let a Golden eagle scratch my itch. thats for sure! Ok birds of prey has sharp claws as well but I don't see a parallel specifically for the retractable giant killing claw of a dromeosaur

Anyway I'm not trying to belittle modern birdies here, I guess what I am arguing against is the specific hypothesis put forward a year or so ago and now apparently accepted as gospel that the dromeosaur and specifically Velociraptor killing claw was designed and utilised specifically as a tool for clasping and pinning down its prey in relation to a comparative study done on a hawk using it for this precise purpose and thus it was not used as a slashing weapon at all.

What I take exception to with this theory is that Velociraptor is unique as far as I know in the dinosaur kingdom in that it has been captured frozen in time in mortal combat literally in the act of attempting to execute its prey and that this should be the primary source for determining how it would kill its prey. The fact is its raised its feet right up to the throat suggesting they used their foot claws for making the kill and the sickle claw itself would be the largest and sharpest claw and is articulated to snap down in a semi-circular motion ideal for the purpose, though can substitute the word gouge, stab, hack etc for slash for perhaps a more accurate terminology.

Any other theory for the claw's useage is just idol speculation along the lines of 'Oh sauropods must have lived in water as they are so heavy and have these high nostrils, oh and lets give it the skin of an elephant as well as theyre big beasties as well arent they'.

Its not a revolutionary theory, maybe they pounced and gripped smaller prey and nibbled it to death at times but we have no evidence to base this on in relation to the dinosaur itself. It just seems theories like this are dreamt up just to rewrite the textbook for the sake of it and then taken as canon because someone has done a study on it. Its like seeing an Iguana lizard munching on some left over Taco Bell and therefore drawing the conclusion that a Compsognathus say had a taste for burritos. You'd get a lot better idea for its dietary preferences by actually analysing the fossilised contents of a dead Compsognathus.

Yes its annoying we can't actually observe a dinosaurs natural behaviour but taking the shortcut of studying a modern day creature that most resembles it as a substitute isn't a methodology I'm ever going to find convincing.

I'm more impressed by the kind of study where they recreate the claw in question and test out its prowess. Like the video of experimenting on a side of beef to disprove the Jurassic park notion that they could rip a creature apart from fly zip to bow tie (I found that hard to swallow even at 14!)

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Yeah sorry maybe if I'd have said hawk it would have translated better, just less alliterative effect! The buzzards I see in England like their bunny rabbits anyway.

It was in relation anyway to the revisionist argument presented recently that dromeosaurs used their killing claw like talons of modern birds of prey to pin down their prey while they consume them. This argument just doesn't hold when you apply it to this kind of scenario though when you've got a Velociraptor in combat with another dinosaur of far greater mass than itself.

A hawk just wouldnt attempt to take on a creature of this size despite being of a similar size to Velociraptor Mongoliensis. The Protoceratops is bigger and approx 8 times heavier than a velociraptor (calulated on the herbivore being estimated to be 2 thirds fully grown in this example) which has tiny teeth less than half an inch; the only way the raptor could hope to kill it is to tear it up with its claws , especially the most lethal weapon in its armoury : the killing claw. The evolutionary chasm between one raptor and another just makes the direct comparison between the 2 in this way seem too implausible for me.

You are making the assumption that they killed large prey regularly. Is there evidence of this? I know one protoceratops attack that was fatal to the attacker. Also, large birds of prey kill animals many times their own size, but I suspect not frequently.

Brent Ashcraft

ashcraft, brent allen

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Regarding the "slashing claw" hypothesis, I never bought it. That claw is not designed for slashing, but for impaling. I think its retractability existed so as not to impede running; these guys were quick ambush predators!

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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