Dragonfly "fossil" covered with calcite

[DPS Ammonite]

Does this $3k "dragonfly" fossil look naturally created or does it look like someone created it recently maybe with one of the crystal growing kits in a box dyed with food coloring? Note the unusually red stains on the block.

[piranha]

Yes, naturally created by hot springs (travertinization).

[Auspex]

It is indeed travertine. Possibly a natural occurrence, but more likely staged.

[piranha]

It is indeed travertine. Possibly a natural occurrence, but more likely staged.

It could just as easily be authentic. The seller claims no provenance of finding it, so we will never know one way or the other.

[Xiphactinus]

There were a bunch at MAPS a few years ago where someone had glued recent dragonflies to rocks and put them in a hot springs. Created "fossils" in a couple of weeks.

[DPS Ammonite]

There were a bunch at MAPS a few years ago where someone had glued recent dragonflies to rocks and put them in a hot springs. Created "fossils" in a couple of weeks.

I think that I would rather have, for much less money, a dated much better quality dragonfly from the Solenhofen limestone.

[William P]

I saw your posting regarding the crystal encrusted dragonfly and the listing on eBay. Since I have one very similar, would like to contribute to the question. The embedded dragonfly on eBay and mine appear to be very similar and could be from the same area. I have never found any others anywhere until I also saw the one on eBay.com.

One reason I lean toward these being natural is that the dealer I obtained mine from in a trade in 1953 was a reputable dealer. Also the differing size of the crystals on the top and bottom. The top crystals are quite a bit bigger and more pronounced while the bottom crystals are much thinner suggesting that the rock was sitting on another surface while the formation took place. I am however, surprised at the similarity of size and shape of the rock base with mine and the eBay one. Also, both specimens are pretty centered on the base. My rock base measures 4-1/5” wide x 4” long

The dealer stated that this fossil was found in the thermal wells area at the southeast portions of the Salton Sea in Southern California. There are bubbling mud pots and thermal activity there and also many minerals. Thermal activity areas in those days were just open country but today there is development of some thermal wells in various areas. When I was hunting there in the 50’s I dug fossils from nearby cliffs. Also collected a number of other mineral specimens including a cluster of shrub branches that are completely covered with salt crystals. I studied and compared the one on eBay to the one I have and I believe they might have come from the same location. I am including a pict of my dragonfly (which has been in my showcase since 1953) for comparison.

[DPS Ammonite]

Welcome to the Fossil Forum William.

Thank you for your information on the "fossil". Do you have any idea what is covering your dragon fly? Does it fizz in acid and therefor a carbonate? Is it salt? In the 50's did you see similar crusts on rocks in the Salton Sea area? If so, what environment were they found: water from geothermal wells; mudpots, deposits from the lake?

I don't doubt that something is covering a real dragonfly; I would just like to find out how they were formed. Some have theorized that humans "helped" them to form. Regardless, they are interesting.

[William P]

Do you have any idea what is covering your dragon fly? Does it fizz in acid and therefor a carbonate? Is it salt? In the 50's did you see similar crusts on rocks in the Salton Sea area? If so, what environment were they found: water from geothermal wells; mudpots, deposits from the lake?

I was told that the crystals are calcite. I have never run any tests on this specimen and prefer not to as it is in pristine condition. It doesn’t even have any marks on the bottom from being placed on the cabinet shelf. I am uploading a couple of close-up photos of the crystal formations both on the head of the dragonfly and on the bottom edge of the base. When I was rock hunting in there area in the 50’s I never saw any crusts similar to this one other than salt crusting of twigs and rocks which have the same orangish color in quite a few of the crystals. I can post a photo of the salt crusted bush twigs if you wish to see them for comparison.

[William P]

I have never run any tests on this specimen and prefer not to as it is in pristine condition.

I am sorry to post on this twice but I did forget to say that the crystals are not salt as I did try water with no results and also gave it a taste test. The results were no salt and water did not alter the crystals at all.

[DPS Ammonite]

I think that there really is a dragonfly in there. The questions are: how old is it?; was it formed naturally?; did it have human help to be made?

Do you know the name of the dealer that sold it to you?

Edited June 17, 2016 by DPS Ammonite

[doushantuo]

look pretty fake to me............

Edited June 18, 2016 by doushantuo

[Ridgehiker]

look pretty fake to me............

That's an understatement.

Really bad.

As stated in a posting above. Perhaps if a dragonfly is glued to a rock and then placed in some type of solution it will become encrusted.

Another one to be Leary of are dragonfly (and other insects) impressions on limestone. Not hard to make using dead specimens and acid. Be especially cautious of a complete set of insect wings.

[doushantuo]

looks like you know your insect taphonomy,Canadawest.

Andre Nel might find this funny

Edited June 18, 2016 by doushantuo

[William P]

I think that there really is a dragonfly in there. The questions are: how old is it?; was it formed naturally?; did it have human help to be made?

Do you know the name of the dealer that sold it to you?

I was told when I got this specimen in 1953 that it was natural and I had never seen one like it until this one popped up on eBay. I do however find it interesting that they are about the same size and the insects are directly in the middle of the bases. The dealer I got this from ran a gem and mineral shop in Bloomington, California in 1953 and has long since closed and passed. I do know that he obtained most of his mineral and fossil stock from Griegers in Pasadena, CA. which also has gone by the wayside. I still have a small Ammonite that came from his Grieger stock. As a side note, I was unaware that in 1953 there were synthetic ways to create calcite crystals. I have been more into gems and minerals all of these years so confess that I am not very knowledgeable about fossils. Thanks for all of your comments.

[Raggedy Man]

It looks really neat and it's definitely a conversation starter. I just have a hard time grasping the "dragonfly" survived intact inside a hot spring. A man fell into a hot spring in Yellowstone a few weeks ago and they haven't recovered the body and never will.

Best regards,

Paul

Edited June 19, 2016 by Raggedy Man

[William P]

It looks really neat and it's definitely a conversation starter. I just have a hard time grasping the "dragonfly" survived intact inside a hot spring. A man fell into a hot spring in Yellowstone a few weeks ago and they haven't recovered the body and never will.

Best regards,

Paul

Thanks for your comments. Yes, it does at least make an interesting conversation piece. The way it was explained to me was that the base rocks were sitting on there surface next to thermal vents which were smiting steam. The dragonfly was drawn to the site because of the moisture and when it landed on the wet surface rock, the wings became wet and heavy and it could not fly away to escape. I have seen some of these vents in the past. I have never seen calcite crystals on the ones I visited but did collect sulfur crystals that had formed on the surrounding surface rocks. I am sorry to hear of the man in Yellowstone...

[doushantuo]

although it is also CaCo3,hot springs mostly precipitate travertine,BTW

Odonatids are chitin,and here is something on chitin taphonomy

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1692454/pdf/7TTY8KM0Y9PADF1X_354_7.pdf

Edited June 20, 2016 by doushantuo

[William P]

although it is also CaCo3,hot springs mostly precipitate travertine,BTW

Odonatids are chitin,and here is something on chitin taphonomy

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1692454/pdf/7TTY8KM0Y9PADF1X_354_7.pdf

Have been away. Thank you for the information. I think there may be some confusion as to the type of location at the Salton Sea this specimen possibly came from. Maybe I was not exact enough in my initial description. They indicated that these were found next to some fumaroles which are open vents surrounded by dry land and not thermal pools. There are thermal pools in the same area as these fumaroles. When I was hunting there in the 50s there were numerous fumaroles in the land surrounding the Salton Sea in the south eastern portion. These fumaroles emit steam and gases which creates a wide variety of minerals. I have collected sulfur and other mineral crystals that had formed on the surrounding rocks and ground surface around these fumaroles.

There were expeditions by the Smithsonian Institution to this area in the late 30s and early 40s. Also, there were expeditions in the area by The Aerospace Corporation (who I also was associated with as a technical and graphic artist). I am including a link to reports regarding visits by the Aerospace Corporation to the Salton Sea area. Notice that there are numerous types of crystals other than travertine that are found to be formed around the fumaroles in that area.

http://www.thulescientific.com/Adams%20&%20Lynch%20Fumaroles%20Mineralogical%20Inventory.pdf

There have been other specimens like this one that have been attributed to one of those Smithsonian expeditions. Also just for information, I am including two links to sites that owned one of these dragonfly specimens found during a Smithsonian expedition. The owners have long ago donated their specimen to a natural history Museum.

http://www.stonearttraders.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=41626760

Here is another view:

http://mineralcollectors.ning.com/photo/fossil-dragonfly-salton-sea-ca

Thanks again for all of your comments

Edited July 1, 2016 by William P

[JohnBrewer]

Too be convinced I'd need to see a peer reviewed paper. If one exits a certain poster above I'm sure would have posted it.

[William P]

I'd need to see a peer reviewed paper. If one exits a certain poster above I'm sure would have posted it.

Sorry, but I don't understand your comment. What paper are you referring to and to whom are you referring to with the comment. "If one exists a certain poster above would have posted it"?

I am not trying to prove anything one way or the other regarding my specimen.... when I came across this site and subject I just thought I would share what information I have about mine for interest. Also, in the sixties, I did work on the Salton Sea project for The Aerospace Corporation (a scientific research corporation) and we even built an exact to scale model of it and the surrounding one hundred miles for study of terrain and drainage. I developed the scale plans and assisted in the construction of the model which, to my last information, is still is on exhibit at the The Aerospace Corporation (Space Park) in El Segundo CA. As previously stated, I obtained my specimen in 1953 from a reputable dealer and when I found this site, thought I would share it. This is getting too complex so maybe I'll just put mine on eBay like the other folks with the info I have and see what happens.

Edited July 3, 2016 by William P

[JohnBrewer]

Hi William, sorry if I offended, that wasn't my intention. Here's wiki's definition of peer reviewed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review

I wasn't saying I've seen a peer reviewed paper on this type of phenomena and was just gently trying to provoke one of the previous posters who has an incredible library of papers and links to papers and I wanted to read an academic article. I just I wanted to know more. At no point did I disbelieve you, I enjoyed reading the whole of the thread particularly how they are formed.

John

[Kognition]

Hello, i just found this thread regarding the dragonfly in question. I purchased this crystallized dragonfly in march of last year as a birthday treat for myself (He took $1k for it). I am more of a fan of dragonflies you could say. And i am happy to answer any questions regarding this dragonfly including providing updated photos. I am quite certain that the crystallized state in which this dragonfly currently resides in is not something manmade. One major point gave that away when the dragonfly arrived on my front door. One wing has been haphazardly repaired with superglue, which leads me to believe that it was not simply created by someone, otherwise if they could make a perfect one, they would. It is not salty by any means, (i tasted it). I have not done an acid test, but i could do so on the underside with pool acid i imagine. The most striking thing about it is that the crystals covering it are ultra fine, and very hard. Nothing rubs off, or flakes off. The damage to the wing reveals a dragonfly body (hollowed out exoskeletal remains with no organs visible). I used my digital microscope to inspect the cavity. My long term plan is to digitally 3D scan it, repair the broken bits of the resulting 3D model in my SolidWorks program, then 3D print it. I have a small manufacturing business, so i have a 3D scanner in house. I have never seen a dragonfly in this state before. And my instinct was that it is rare. I have seen the amazing and flawless example of a dragonfly in this state on a japanese museum website, and the one or two similar ones to mine. I am here to provide any information about it to help clear the air.

[fossilized6s]

Yes, please share some photos! I'm sure we would all love to see this thing in all of it's crystallized entombed glory. 

[Kognition]

I have a new Nikon P900, so i will take some closeup photos this weekend.