Terror Bird Vs. Saber-tooth, Aborigine Vs. Marsupial Lion

[MarkGelbart]

During National Geographic's program last night about the extinction of Australia's megafauna, they kept advertising tonight's special about the terror bird. The advertisement showed the terror bird killing a saber-tooth with one peck.

My money would be on the saber-tooth.

They also showed a computer animation of three Australian aborigines throwing spears at a marsupial lion. The spears bounced off, and the narrator and a consulting scientist made it sound like a marsupial lion would just be too tough for humans to handle.

My money would be on the humans. In fact, I think humans with spears would be the victors almost every time.

What do you all think?

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

First, I sure do wish I could get the NG channel.

I agree that the humans would probably win against the lion, since they did have spears.

I am not sure about the bird v. Saber-tooth. Some of them Terror Birds were awfully big and had incredible beaks. I know I wouldn't want to be meeting either of them!

[BobC]

Mark there is no question in my mind that a Saber-tooth would kill any terrestrial bird, no matter how big. Lions hunt Ostriches. Cats stalk and kill--and their stealth IMO would allow them to hunt these "terror birds."

I do video games for a living and I find most of these shows really embarrassing because the animators are always so clueless about animal behavior and it shows. If I see one more stealth hunter roaring before they pounce, I am going to hurl myself from the nearest skyscraper.

You don't announce your presence when you are sneaking up on something. God that is so retarded

[PaleoRon]

Aborigines still live in Australia. Marsupial lions are extinct. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Was the consulting scientist a botanist?

[BobC]

I love Natgeo and the Science Channel--but there are times when they run some embarrassing chit. Why would a spear bounce off a marsupial lion? That is just stupid. A Glyptodont--yeah, but a lion?

I am also really tired of the Global Warming hysteria too.

[Auspex]

The larger modern raptors are ambush predators that pick their prey very carefully. They can tell which of their potential meals have lost a step (old, hurt, sick); they do not risk their lives by attacking healthy, alert prey.

I don't think a terror bird would have attacked a lion unless it was very vulnerable.

[BobC]

right.

[ashcraft]

The larger modern raptors are ambush predators that pick their prey very carefully. They can tell which of their potential meals have lost a step (old, hurt, sick); they do not risk their lives by attacking healthy, alert prey.

I don't think a terror bird would have attacked a lion unless it was very vulnerable.

I never was much for the "old and the weak" theory, are there any studies to support it? A predator takes what is available, there are more young available, so they get taken more often. If they have a choice, then they may single out an easier prey item. As a hunter, I would never take a sick animal for food, I don't think it would taste good, not to mention the sick aspect of it. Raptors make mistakes all the time in taking prey, I read an article a few years back, I think in Natural History, where something like fifty percent of the raptor attacks on weasels lead to the death of the raptor, the weasel is so quick, it can spin in the talons, climb the bird, and break its spine with a single bite.

Brent Ashcraft

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

"the weasel is so quick, it can spin in the talons, climb the bird, and break its spine with a single bite."

Reminds me of an old poster where this little mouse, in its last act of defiance, is giving the middle finger to an eagle attacking it.

[Auspex]

I never was much for the "old and the weak" theory, are there any studies to support it? A predator takes what is available, there are more young available, so they get taken more often. If they have a choice, then they may single out an easier prey item. As a hunter, I would never take a sick animal for food, I don't think it would taste good, not to mention the sick aspect of it. Raptors make mistakes all the time in taking prey, I read an article a few years back, I think in Natural History, where something like fifty percent of the raptor attacks on weasels lead to the death of the raptor, the weasel is so quick, it can spin in the talons, climb the bird, and break its spine with a single bite.

Brent Ashcraft

Raptors are pretty fragile compared to other predators. Every time they attack, they are risking their lives; all it takes is a banged-up wing and death by starvation is certain. They do make mistakes, but it's usually the rookies; if a hawk can make it through it's first after-hatch year, it is likely to die of old age.

(My observations of raptor behavior are based, in part, on 35 years of banding the migrants at Cape May every fall; to lure them to the trap, we have to simulate impaired prey or we catch nothing).

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

OK, I see how you get them into the can, but how do you get them out? Push them all the way forward?

[Cris]

I saw this....I alsot didn't add up at all to me. There were plenty of other, less dangerous things for the terror bird to eat. Why would it choose one that could easily kill it instead?

[ashcraft]

Raptors are pretty fragile compared to other predators. Every time they attack, they are risking their lives; all it takes is a banged-up wing and death by starvation is certain. They do make mistakes, but it's usually the rookies; if a hawk can make it through it's first after-hatch year, it is likely to die of old age.

(My observations of raptor behavior are based, in part, on 35 years of banding the migrants at Cape May every fall; to lure them to the trap, we have to simulate impaired prey or we catch nothing).

That's interesting stuff, when you say impaired prey, injured rabbit versus un-injured rabbit? I have seen raptors swoop down when using a dieing rabbit call, looking for a free meal, but does that in itself equate to looking for weak/feeble prey tp avoid injury?

Brent Ashcraft

[Auspex]

At a fixed sation (blind) for migrant banding, we use only House Sparrow, European Starling, and Rock Pigeon as lures. They wear custom-made "flak jackets" that protect them and gives us a place to attach a controll line. They have to be able to flap their wings freely, but not fly. We pull then into the air via the lead-line which passes through a guide on a pole and they flutter down like a wounded bird. The trick (one of the biggies anyway) is to ID each hawk while it's still way out (1-2 miles) so we can use the appropriate lure. A small hawk might investigate a pigeon, but will check-off when he sees how big it is; a big Buteo won't give a sparrow a second look. They are all about maximum payoff for minimum risk. Except for the larger Falcons, one pass is all you get.

[Frank Menser]

Frankly, I have to agree the Bird would be Kitty food. The Sabre could suffer a fair amount of damage and still keep going. Not to mention that cat claws work from any angle, not to mention the sheer power of a paw (going from the strike force of a modern big cat, that alone could break bones. I don't think the Bird would be of any use the first time it was knocked off its feet.

Going from the more modern example, the Masai (I pulled out my old copy of HUNTER. John Hunter -a big game hunter in the 1930's, witnessed the Masai fighting lions) in groups usually of a dozen or so and armed with superior weapons still took casualties when fighting modern lions. Their iron blades often bent when striking a Lion. So I think a lot depends on the weapon quality. It is very hard to penetrate skin and muscle effectively with a wood or flint point that is thrown-especially at a moving target. Bouncing off would be a common result. Even Flint arrows which travel at a greater velocity have limited effectiveness and require several good hits to down a really massive animal. So IMO for primitive spears to work it would require more stabbing closeup work. Under those circumstances, I would have to give the advantage to the Marsupial Lion unless it was a rather big group of Aborigines.

[BobC]

I have witnessed many instances of raptor predation--I once saw a red-tailed hawk carrying a rattlesnakes so big you could tell the hawk was having trouble getting airborn. The rattlesnake was still alive too! When I lived in Lewisville Texas we had small falcons that hunted pigeons pretty much exclusively--they were really good at it. There are Youtube videos of eagles being used to hunt wolves, deer and foxes--amongst other things. Did you know Golden Eagle will knock mountain goats off cliffs and then go feed on the remains? Pretty smart

Cris--I'm with you. The Terror bird would have hunted minature horses and camels and other less threatening prey. I think these science channels think they have to make everything seem more dramatic to draw viewers.

[Boesse]

Seeing as North American placentals wiped out terror birds in S.A. after the great american interchange, and that humans wiped out all the really big freaks in australia, I say bird<cat<human.

My 2cents.

[Auspex]

I have twice found Great Horned Owl pellets with house cat craniums in them

[BobC]

I believe it. Owls are really scary birds. Keep fluffy in the house when owls are prowling around

[ashcraft]

At a fixed sation (blind) for migrant banding, we use only House Sparrow, European Starling, and Rock Pigeon as lures. They wear custom-made "flak jackets" that protect them and gives us a place to attach a controll line. They have to be able to flap their wings freely, but not fly. We pull then into the air via the lead-line which passes through a guide on a pole and they flutter down like a wounded bird. The trick (one of the biggies anyway) is to ID each hawk while it's still way out (1-2 miles) so we can use the appropriate lure. A small hawk might investigate a pigeon, but will check-off when he sees how big it is; a big Buteo won't give a sparrow a second look. They are all about maximum payoff for minimum risk. Except for the larger Falcons, one pass is all you get.

I still don't know if that equates to looking for weakness to lessen chance of injury, could be an energetics thing. Biggest bang for least amount of exertion, I think would be more likely. I can't see a house sparrow being much of a danger to any raptor, regardless of size.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but you are much more of an expert then me. and I genuinely want to hear you opinion. Hearing how raptors are captured, and seeing how you hold them, was quite informative.

Brent Ashcraft

[PaleoRon]

Raptors are pretty fragile compared to other predators. Every time they attack, they are risking their lives; all it takes is a banged-up wing and death by starvation is certain. They do make mistakes, but it's usually the rookies; if a hawk can make it through it's first after-hatch year, it is likely to die of old age.

(My observations of raptor behavior are based, in part, on 35 years of banding the migrants at Cape May every fall; to lure them to the trap, we have to simulate impaired prey or we catch nothing).

So that's the secret ingredient in Thunderbird.

[Auspex]

I still don't know if that equates to looking for weakness to lessen chance of injury, could be an energetics thing. Biggest bang for least amount of exertion, I think would be more likely. I can't see a house sparrow being much of a danger to any raptor, regardless of size.

There is no facet of life where energetics is not a factor, but I think that for top-tier predators with access to an abundant prey base it will be the mishap that keeps them from reproducing.

I have only trapped two raptors (out of thousands) that showed signs of emaciation. Indeed, most have had something in their crop (we have a data point for condition of crop; 0 to 4 [with 4 looking like goiter], and most are 1 to 3). These well-fed birds weren't hungry; the "helpless prey" response is something they can't turn off.

There is a very well defined specialization among the raptors as to each species' prey base; a big rumbling, stumbling, bumbling Red Tailed Hawk is more likely to mess himself up on a tiny little sparrow that the small amount of food would be worth.

[BobC]

Hey Aus--I had a friend a while back who hunted with a red tailed hawk. I asked him what was the weirdest thing the hawk ever brought back--and he said a horned owl! Is that possible? Do hawks prey on owls and vice versa? Wat's the strangest thing you ever saw a hawk prey on?

[grampa dino]

Have you ever seen a Crow go afert a Cat and win?

that was different way to spend the afternoon, watching

[Ramo]

Back when I was in High School I had a friend who found two young Great Horned owls and raised them to maturity. I never went with him, but he said he would take them through town and night and hunt cats. Fish and game found out he had them and came over to his house to take them. They only knew he had one, and when they were in the garage loading one up, the other came flying in. The game warden then asked him "Just how many of these do you have?" I don't think he actually got a ticket, because they were able to come and go as they pleased.