waughgavin Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Hello again, I have been searching around for fossils and have heard that many keichousaurus fossils are faked in China. Are there any tips to finding out which are fake? I found one and the seller says he has used U.V. lights to look for fake bones, but I'm unsure of its authenticity. Here it is: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 (edited) It appears to be real to me. If it's a fake, then it's a really good one. Problem is, photos can be decieving and you can only really judge for sure when you get it in your hands for investigation. I don't buy much in the way of fossils, but when I see the word China, the alarm bells start to chime. Edited April 8, 2016 by Ludwigia Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Appears to be real (but no guarantee, Ludwigia is absolutely right - you can only really judge for sure when you get it in your hands for investigation). Part of head and neck might be restored and painted and the bones are damaged due to their prep method (grinding) but that is the way it is with almost all of them. Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Let me start by saying I know NOTHING about boney creatures so do NOT take my comments too seriously. I am just interested with what an expert would say. Probably shouldn't stick my nose into this posting. My observation of the wrists shows 5 fingers and only 2 metacarpal bones. The ulna seems to go directly to the carpal bone. This just doesn't look real to me. The creature is presented in a very symmetrical way so I have to think the bones of the wrist would not be distorted and hidden from view. Is this typical anatomy for creatures like this?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 (edited) My observation of the wrists shows 5 fingers and only 2 metacarpal bones. The ulna seems to go directly to the carpal bone. This just doesn't look real to me. I think you mixed up carpals and metacarpals - there are 2 carpal bones (wrist bones) and 5 metacarpals (not two). The carpal bones are between the ulna and the metacarpals (and not ulna - metacarpals - carpals). By Anatomist90, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=29524908 This is from the thesis of Kebang Lin: Functional Morphology and Phylogeny of Keichousaurus hui (Sauropterygia, Reptilia), Mc Gill University, Montreal, 1994 Lower arms of Keichousaurus a left dorsal b right dorsal c right ventral Anybody interested in this thesis, send me a PM. Thomas PS: There is always a high risk of metacarpals and phalanges being only painted and not being real bones Edited April 8, 2016 by oilshale 7 Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prem Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 I have seen this one, too, and wondered as to its authenticity. If it's real, it seems like a pretty good bargain at around $300. ---Prem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 To me, the color on the last 2 or 3 digits of the 'finger' tips done seem right along with the last bit of tail. RB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 I think you mixed up carpals and metacarpals - there are 2 carpal bones (wrist bones) and 5 metacarpals (not two). The carpal bones are between the ulna and the metacarpals (and not ulna - metacarpals - carpals). Metacarpus_(left_hand)_dorsal_view.png By Anatomist90, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=29524908 This is from the thesis of Kebang Lin: Functional Morphology and Phylogeny of Keichousaurus hui (Sauropterygia, Reptilia), Mc Gill University, Montreal, 1994 Unbenannt.JPG Lower arms of Keichousaurus a left dorsal b right dorsal c right ventral Anybody interested in this thesis, send me a PM. Thomas PS: There is always a high risk of metacarpals and phalanges being only painted and not being real bones Thanks for the anatomy lesson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bguild Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 (edited) Looks real to me, but like it's been stated above it's hard to tell without actually handling the specimen. There appears to have been touch up restoration done to some bones. You can see the color differences in the front fingers, lower tail and part of the head (Possibly a few other areas, but it's hard to say just from the pictures). This indicates that these areas are painted. It's hard to say if there's bone under the paint though from the pictures alone. Often times Keich fossils have the smaller or less vibrant bones touched up with paint to make them stand out more. It's not really a big deal to most people as long as there are actual bones, but that's up to you to decide. All things considered this is a decent Keich fossil. Especially if the price is less than $500 as stated above. There's definitely some damage from prepping, but that's how it goes with most Keich fossils. Edited April 8, 2016 by Bguild 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waughgavin Posted April 22, 2016 Author Share Posted April 22, 2016 Hey guys, Sorry to post this again, but I've gotten some new pictures from the seller and I'd like to know if these will help determine the authenticity. New Photos: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waughgavin Posted April 22, 2016 Author Share Posted April 22, 2016 Here are the other photos from the original listing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 I like the posture of the back legs/feet. Verts in the neck and tail have been over zealously abraded. Prep was perhaps with a rotary stone or wire brush, I don't like the prep. However, I imagine the small original displays better than the blown-up monitor images. Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Tip of the snout, front fingers and part of the tail are missing. Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Pocock Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Looks to me like a real specimen that has been speed prepped with a rotary tool as stated and then very carefully touched up with paint in some areas not to add to the specimen but more to define it and make it look more attractive. I think that for the price it looks good and if I bought fossils it would be one I would think about purchasing. Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Tip of the snout, front fingers and part of the tail are missing. I argee with this. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waughgavin Posted April 22, 2016 Author Share Posted April 22, 2016 Thanks for the help guys! I don't think it's too bad for $200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdsnl Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 k3.jpg It looks very real, but the ribs make me doubt. Why are they pointing towards the head instead of the tail? If you make an image search of Keichousaurus fossils, you'll see that the ribs always point to the tail. That is much more physically plausible when flattened by pressure of the matrix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) It looks very real, but the ribs make me doubt. Why are they pointing towards the head instead of the tail? If you make an image search of Keichousaurus fossils, you'll see that the ribs always point to the tail. That is much more physically plausible when flattened by pressure of the matrix. Nothing to worry about - this is from Kebang Lin's thesis on "Functional Morphology and ontogeny of Keichousaurus hui (Reptilia, Sauropterygia)". It is just an optical illusion because of the ventral view: The "upward pointing" ribs are actually downward pointing. Edited April 22, 2016 by oilshale 1 Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bguild Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Tip of the snout, front fingers and part of the tail are missing. Yes, that is correct. Seems like a good deal all things considered. These guys can get expensive very quickly, especially for a top end specimen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Price reflects the reconstruction. If your happy with the look it's a good price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdsnl Posted April 23, 2016 Share Posted April 23, 2016 (edited) Unbenannt.JPG Nothing to worry about - this is from Kebang Lin's thesis on "Functional Morphology and ontogeny of Keichousaurus hui (Reptilia, Sauropterygia)". It is just an optical illusion because of the ventral view: The "upward pointing" ribs are actually downward pointing. Unbenannt 2.JPG I don't know, still looks odd to me. This is what I'm seeing: If I'm following them right, they still look to be pointing up. Also, if it's a ventral view, just like in your image, the ribs should point to the vertebra and not outward, right? Edited April 23, 2016 by sdsnl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilcrazy Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 (edited) One good way to know your Keich is real; buy an unprepared specimen, then have it professionally prepared by a US preparer. I bought my unprepared Keich from RJB and then had my friend Bob Miles finish the specimen. I'm happy to know it is real. Before Prepping After Prepping Edited April 24, 2016 by fossilcrazy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 (edited) I don't know, still looks odd to me. This is what I'm seeing: Capture1.JPG If I'm following them right, they still look to be pointing up. Also, if it's a ventral view, just like in your image, the ribs should point to the vertebra and not outward, right? Capture2.JPG I think you are not following them right: The green part and the dottet green part on the right side do not belong to the same rib. The dottet part is the end of another (overlying)rib (indicated in blue). I am seeing the ribs pointing downwards as shown on the left side. Edited April 25, 2016 by oilshale Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdsnl Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 I think you are not following them right:The green part and the dottet green part on the right side do not belong to the same rib. The dottet part is the end of another (overlying)rib (indicated in blue).I am seeing the ribs pointing downwards as shown on the left side.post-Keich2.jpg Ah, I see what you mean. But I just looked at the head of this specimen, is that not a dorsal view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Ah, I see what you mean. But I just looked at the head of this specimen, is that not a dorsal view? I agree, the head looks like a dorsal view, but I fear this is because of the lower jaw being missing (prepped / ground away). You can clearly see the shoulder girdle - so it must be in ventral view. Thomas Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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