Looking back at one of my older "fossils" - Distorted root or siderite nodule?

[icycatelf]

Among my first posts here was a piece that I initially thought was some kind of coral, but those who reviewed it thought it may have been Lepidodendron Stigmaria, although still puzzled by its appearance. After countless times of looking it up, I've yet to see any Lepidodendron fossils (root or not) that look quite like it.

I was reading up on fossils again recently and came across another Pennsylvanian fossil (related to Lepidodendron) that, in my opinion, looks far more like my specimen. Do you guys think it may instead be Sigillaria? Attached are some examples.

EDIT: Close-ups added later in topic (post #9). Edge close-ups in post #26.

Edited April 21, 2016 by icycatelf

[Fossildude19]

I would stick with coral on your item.

The pattern doesn't look uniform enough to be plant - looks more coral like to me, in it;s randomness.

Regards,

[abyssunder]

Unfortunately I don't find your older post in which was presented initially, but if I remember correctly, at that time I presumed that it could be Stigmaria ficoides.

[icycatelf]

I would stick with coral on your item.

The pattern doesn't look uniform enough to be plant - looks more coral like to me, in it;s randomness.

Regards,

Funny because someone in the old thread said it looked too random to be coral. xD

Unfortunately I don't find your older post in which was presented initially, but if I remember correctly, at that time I presumed that it could be Stigmaria ficoides.

That you did. I guess I assumed back then that Stigmaria was exclusive to Lepidodendron, rather than all Lycopsids. Still having trouble finding any that look quite like this, though.

Edited April 19, 2016 by icycatelf

[icycatelf]

Also, can anyone verify if this, my newest find, is Lepidodendron or Sigillaria root or bark? The holes make me think root, but the faint wavy shapes make me think bark. From the pictures I've seen online, it looks most like S. ficoides, var. Goepp. to me.

Edited April 19, 2016 by icycatelf

[DPS Ammonite]

Would you take another photo only of 2 or 3 "scales" or "corallites" using your camera's best close up or macro settings. Crop the photo to reduce file size. Keep the image size just below the 2MB limit. A photo with more detail and one that we can enlarge on our screens might solve whether the fossil is a plant or coral.

Thanks.

[icycatelf]

Would you take another photo only of 2 or 3 "scales" or "corallites" using your camera's best close up or macro settings. Crop the photo to reduce file size. Keep the image size just below the 2MB limit. A photo with more detail and one that we can enlarge on our screens might solve whether the fossil is a plant or coral.

Thanks.

I'll try. My camera has a hard time focusing on things close-up, even with macro. I'll be back in a bit with my results.

Edited April 19, 2016 by icycatelf

[Auspex]

Also, can anyone verify if this, my newest find, is Lepidodendron or Sigillaria root or bark? The holes make me think root, but the faint wavy shapes make me think bark. From the pictures I've seen online, it looks most like S. ficoides, var. Goepp. to me.

To my eyes, it is stigmaria. I have seen some with that ropy, muscular topography; I take such to be an emergent portion at the pase of the plant.

[icycatelf]

Okay, here are the close-ups (I'm sorry they're not bigger):

Edited April 19, 2016 by icycatelf

[Fossildude19]

Hmm. Okay - Not seeing any corallites.

This is an odd one.

I don't think plant, or coral, now.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Fossildude19

[DPS Ammonite]

The fossils in the new close up photos don't look like coral because there is no evidence of septa. Strained and disarticulated fossils of plants such as Lepidodendron or Sigillaria seem to be a better possible ID.

I'm beginning to wonder if these structures are small concretions. The features seem to wrap around the front edge of the rock.

Could we get a couple of detailed photos of the edges of the rock (that we can't see in the photos) to see if the scale like features are 3-D features or just impressions on the curved surface of the rock?

Edited April 19, 2016 by DPS Ammonite

[howard_l]

The geology would eliminate coral but plant fossils are very common. What few marine zones in the Pennsylvanian of Eastern KY. the only coral present is the rugose horn coral Lophophyllidium and are not very common.

[Auspex]

I think it is heavily decorticated Sigillaria, possibly S. elegans.

[icycatelf]

The fossils in the new close up photos don't look like coral because there is no evidence of septa. Strained and disarticulated fossils of plants such as Lepidodendron or Sigillaria seem to be a better possible ID.

I'm beginning to wonder if these structures are small concretions. The features seem to wrap around the front edge of the rock.

Could we get a couple of detailed photos of the edges of the rock (that we can't see in the photos) to see if the scale like features are 3-D features or just impressions on the curved surface of the rock?

I'll try to take some tomorrow if no one else can come to a conclusion. It's starting to get dark out and indoor lighting isn't very favorable for detailed photos...

The geology would eliminate coral but plant fossils are very common. What few marine zones in the Pennsylvanian of Eastern KY. the only coral present is the rugose horn coral Lophophyllidium and are not very common.

I had already mentally ruled out coral a while back, though it is worth mentioning that it was found in the driveway where gravel has been brought in (bearing marine fossils like brachiopods and small bits of rugose and tabulate corals). However, the coloring is quite different (closer to our local slate), so I don't think it was brought in with the gravel. Given that the other fossils I've found in the driveway slate have been plants, I'm confident that this, if it is a fossil, is plant.

[icycatelf]

I think it is heavily decorticated Sigillaria, possibly S. elegans.

This looks promising.

[abyssunder]

I think the first is Stigmarioides sp. and the second Stigmaria.

Stigmarioides has randomly distributed scars with different size, while Stigmaria has helically arranged scars with almost similar size. http://www.georgesbasement.com/Langford-WilmingtonCoalFlora/Webpage/RootsP46.htm

[icycatelf]

I think the first is Stigmarioides sp. and the second Stigmaria.

Stigmarioides has randomly distributed scars with different size, while Stigmaria has helically arranged scars with almost similar size. http://www.georgesbasement.com/Langford-WilmingtonCoalFlora/Webpage/RootsP46.htm

GL046TreeRoots02CB.jpg

That sounds very likely, but I wish I could find more pics...

Is it possible to tell which lycopsids they (both 1 and 2) came from? #1 definitely looks like Sigillaria to me and I'm wanting to say Lepidodendron for #2, but I've also seen some similar examples labeled as Sigillaria. I'm just now discovering Sigillaria and I'm having trouble distinguishing them from Lepidodendron and even some Calamites.

Edited April 20, 2016 by icycatelf

[Fossildude19]

My issue with your item is that it doesn't have the parallel lines that the example lycopsid items have.

Not sure what to make of your item.

[abyssunder]

Look what wrote George Langford (1876-1964) in his manuscript :
Also here is a good example of Stigmaria in this thread : http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/31859-various-pennsylvanian-lycopods/

or here : http://www.thefossilforum.com/uploads/gallery/album_1771/gallery_1240_1771_14963.jpg

Edited April 20, 2016 by abyssunder

[icycatelf]

Look what wrote George Langford (1876-1964) in his manuscript : GL046TreeRootsTextCB.jpg

Also here is a good example of Stigmaria in this thread : http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/31859-various-pennsylvanian-lycopods/

post-6808-0-13602400-1347528704.jpg1.jpg

or here : http://www.thefossilforum.com/uploads/gallery/album_1771/gallery_1240_1771_14963.jpg

I saw the note, but couldn't read it at all last night. Must've been on my computer too long. @_@

Now that you mention it, however, I did see a note on Stigmaria's Wikipedia page that the plant bearing Stigmaria is unidentified. I guess seeing Sigillaria and Lepidodendron there threw me off.

Thanks!

Edited April 20, 2016 by icycatelf

[Carl]

Sorry - not a fossil. I only skimmed the thread so please forgive me if I'm repeating. I have seen this on nodules in South Dakota in the badlands. The marks are actually the result of some kind of spalling.

[icycatelf]

Sorry - not a fossil. I only skimmed the thread so please forgive me if I'm repeating. I have seen this on nodules in South Dakota in the badlands. The marks are actually the result of some kind of spalling.

Unfortunate if that is the case (considering that I've been calling it a fossil for so long), though still cool to look at.

Do you have any photo examples? I've seen some non-fossil stuff with similar shapes, but minus the little circle inside each.

Edited April 20, 2016 by icycatelf

[TqB]

I agree it looks nodular, but very cool indeed.

[icycatelf]

Would it help if I mentioned that the pattern is present on both sides?

[DPS Ammonite]

Show us a picture of the bottom and two sides. You may have an iron rich rock with 3-D concretions.