Weird Teeth and Claws

[Bone Daddy]

Peace River, Bone Valley, Hawthorn Group. All found while sifting medium-large gravel in exposed limestone rock rapids in low moving water.

Ignore the dugong rib at the top left and the alligator teeth at the top right above the vertebra.

The rest are oddball teeth and claws from my last trip to the Peace River (Florida). I have tried to use the internet to ID some of them, but these continue to vex me. Any help would be appreciated.

The long skinny claw thing (to the bottom right of the dugong rib) is hollow, but is not bone It has the remnants of some sort of enamel on it like a tooth, but seems too long and skinny to be a tooth.

Ignore the little worn vert next to the bigger unknown vert.

Thanks in advance!

I can shoot more photos if needed.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Amberphile

[Bone Daddy]

Update, on the bottom row, second from the left is a worn and broken snaggletooth shark tooth. I am disappointed in myself over that one. I should have looked more closely. It looks like it's been in a rock tumbler, so that threw me off a bit as it resembled a keratin-like material and not enamel.

Big curved tooth in the middle is a sperm whale tooth I am told?

[jcbshark]

I think the long skinny one may be a Peccary tusk

Edited May 1, 2016 by jcbshark

[Bone Daddy]

Here are some better photos :

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/gallery/album/2532-need-id-help/

[Shellseeker]

Center heavily curved tooth. http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/52991-lower-mammal-canine/

Lower right Deer Cuboid http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/50393-tarsal-or-carpal/

Top center Broken Deer tine

Above Hemi -- deer molar

[abyssunder]

Maybe these are crypts or adventitious tubes of bivalves ?

[tmaier]

The one with the flared end looks like a siphuncle anterior canal of a gastropod.

[digit]

And the two mammal teeth under the nicely banded dugong bone look to be tapir (top) and deer (below) molars. Nice diversity of finds--you got a good spot there.

Cheers.

-Ken

[Bone Daddy]

Thanks folks! With your help, it pointed me in the right direction to identify most of the specimens, with the exception of the two little oddballs in the white gemjar case on the left. The larger one does appear to be a "mummified" claw of some sort and does not resemble a marine fossil, although I am way out of my element with marine fossils. The other one is rock-like and does resemble some sort of tube-worm cast or something along those lines.

The two objects in the other white gemjar are still a mystery. The larger one might be a tiny antler nubbin, or it could be a claw core of some sort, I just don't know. We have found some interesting oddballs in this spot and continue to hunt the surrounding area, so maybe something else will turn up that may give some of the other finds more context.

[digit]

It's hard to see from the photos but since you have the specimens in hand you might consider having a closer look at your two "gem jar" specimens under some magnification. To me the surfaces of those seem rough and not particularly smooth as I'd expect in a an actual fossil. I suspect they may be infilled burrows or something along those lines (ichnofossils) as they appear to be composed of sandy/silty material rather than fossilized bone or claw. I find lots of suggestively shaped phosphate nodules, worn marine shell casts or other unusual bits that make me stop and ponder them for a bit when they turn up in my sifter. I've read through many books on the fossils that may be found in the Peace River and have a pretty good search image for the types of things that may be found there. When I see something that doesn't match up with an easily identifiable fossil it usually goes back in the river. Sure, I'll miss some items like gastroliths but my test for whether I'll keep something is that I have to be able to show an item to a non-fossil-savvy friend and have them understand what it is after a simple explanation. Thus a worn bone fragment that is clearly bone but has been tumbled into anonymity goes back in the river. A camel cannon bone, even if broken, would come home with me if it had the distinctive distal end where you could see how the proximal phalanx articulated along its curved end.

In my (extremely) humble opinion, your two gem jar pieces are likely ichnofossils. If that passes your bar to become part of your collection then that is great--but I don't know that you'll ever be able to attach a more descriptive name to them (or a species). For me they would be a novelty to study for a moment and ponder the possibilities before being unceremoniously dumped back in the river with the rest of the gravel. To each their own. Now, other items like your cuboid or your tapir and deer teeth or those nice gator chompers--those would be proud members of my small collection.

Cheers.

-Ken

[tmaier]

"When I see something that doesn't match up with an easily identifiable fossil it usually goes back in the river." I use a two stage method. At first I carry the unknown object around while I finish the hunt, and then give it a thought later. If it seems to be possibly "something", then I keep it. Later on when I get home I research a bit to find possibilities, and then if I determine it isn't something, I put it outside by the front door.

I started doing that because in the early days I had thrown too many real fossils aside, and dismissed them too rashly.

I told this story before, but my first fossil when I was about 10 was a beautiful brachiopod that I threw out into a field, because I couldn't believe I had actually found something. Act in haste, repent at leisure.

[digit]

Completely agree. I continue to mull over curious finds even to this day. I brought some odd pieces back from this last Saturday that are definitely something but have no idea what they could be. When I get a moment I'll photograph them and post them to the forum to see if someone else has run into these already and figured out what they are--a classic way to add to your knowledge base. A good example of this is the acorn barnacle steinkerns (internal molds) which tend to look like some weirdly unusual tooth or something. I believe I posted some of my finds some years ago and I occasionally see others posting their finds. I was clueless at first but the identification is quite apparent once you understand them. It's a simple matter to pass this knowledge along on the forum and enlighten others as they pass through that learning stage.

The first time I fossil hunted the Peace River was on a guided trip with Mark Renz. This was just after Mark was featured on that old show "Best Places to Find Cash and Treasures" on the Travel Channel (circa 2007) and he was momentarily swamped with interest. He had to bring in some assistants to help him as there were about 40 people between his walk-in tour and the kayak trip he had that Saturday. His attention was fragmented much more than on his usual trips and he was continuously making the rounds to see how each of the nascent fossil hunters were doing. At the start he stated that we should keep anything that we thought might be something and that when he came by he could explain what bits were fossils and what was suggestively shaped pieces of phosphate matrix which could be tossed back in the river. When he passed by me and my wife I pulled out and showed to Mark an unusual bit that I had tossed in my goody belt along with the shark teeth and whatever else I found on my first attempt at fossiling the Peace. Mark asked why I had kept that piece. I assumed he was going to state that it was merely a faker as I'd heard him say countless times to dozens of others that day but I explained that it seemed to have an odd "biological" character to it and thought it might be a fossil rather than a lump of matrix. It turned out to be a nice whale tympanic bulla and Mark was impressed that I had spotted some of the key features that indicated that it was more than just another lump from the river. It made my day to know that I might just have a bit of a knack for this fossil hunting thing.

Of course, some of life's best lessons require you to do bone-headed things. The one I'm still living down in my first time shore diving off the Venice, FL area. I was having fun picking up shark teeth (and even a horse tooth or two) from the black gravel outcrops in the sand during a long shallow-water fossil hunting dive. I had brought along a zip-top bag to hold onto my finds and had quickly learned that surface hunting was the best approach. When I found a few teeth in close proximity I tried fanning the bottom to see if I could uncover some more fossils but the fine silt stayed suspended too long and there was no current to clear the water so the visibility went to zero and didn't seem like it wanted to clear so I just learned to move on and pick from the surface. After a while I had a nice little collection in my bag (including some small broken meg pieces). The bottom is pretty featureless where I was diving with the occasional coral outcrop or algae covered rock breaking the monotony. I spotted one odd shaped rock about the size of a bowling ball but it seemed to have odd wavy ridges on the side. I picked it up and rotated it around to see if I could learn anything more about it. In my mind it seemed to me to be some sort of coral fragment (most of the other rocks were identifiable dead coral heads). This thing was too large to carry back to shore for a closer inspection so I left it where it was since I just couldn't make this thing out--that is till I went back to the dive shop to drop off my rental scuba tank. The dive shop was packed with all sorts of fossils that had been recovered from the "bone yard" dives they chartered further offshore. Then I spotted a perfect doppelgänger for my mystery "coral"--a complete Colombian Mammoth molar!

Of course, I quickly decided to refill my tank instead and headed back out to the same spot to go recover that algae, barnacle and tube-worm covered mammoth molar but after over two hours of semi-methodical searching of the area I never was able to relocate that prize. It's my fishing story of the "one that got away" and it took me nearly eight years to find another complete mammoth molar (this time unmistakably in the Peace River).

Act in haste, repent at leisure, cry in one's beer.

Cheers.

-Ken

[tmaier]

I've never fossil dived, but I have tried finding objects that have been dropped from boats, and in water of limited visibility it is very frustrating. The limited visibility makes it seem like you are in a small room, and trying to grid search usually ends up with me swimming in curves, never making an actual grid. One boater lost his rod and reel, and I brought up somebody else's tackle, which he seemed pleased with. =-)

[digit]

Grid searching underwater can be quite a pain. An easier method (for future reference) is to drop a heavy weight (something like a boat anchor) somewhere near the center of your search area. Attach a reel of rope to the object and use a compass to give you some idea of your orientation/heading underwater. Start with a few meters of line let out from the reel and swim a complete circle (using the heading on the compass to know when you've completed a loop). Let out enough line to allow you to search the next section and then make another complete circle. The amount of rope played out between loops depends on the visibility. In crummy viz only a few extra feet are unreeled during each loop. You just swim the loop keeping tension on the line to swim a reasonably precise circle and continue in ever-widening concentric rings. No worries about gridding or swimming straight lines but doesn't work well in areas with lots of underwater obstructions or in an environment like under a pier with pilings to deal with.

Diving for fossils is fun with its own merits and challenges. I haven't done it in some time but hope to get out again something this year.

Cheers.

-Ken

[Bone Daddy]

I am still learning about the suggestive shapes some non-fossils can take. My eyes want to see interesting things like claws, fangs, beaks, and ivory, but most of what I am seeing is just bone, antler, rocks, or even driftwood.

I have a mentality where I keep just about everything I find in my first few sifters. Even if it's a very common thing, I will put it in my bag, just to get things started and make sure I never go home completely empty-handed. I might not find that one sexy or big find, but I will bring home a bunch of little stuff if nothing else. Sometimes that little stuff turns out to be more interesting than I initially thought, but most times it doesn't.

If I am having a good day of finds, I get pickier about what I keep. You know I'm having a good day when my discards are full of nice (but small) shark teeth, turtle shell, bone bits, ribs, etc. I just have to stop keeping that stuff at some point, or my garage will fill up with it. I already have a couple of large boxes full of dugong ribs that should make me rich one day when their popularity as paperweights goes viral....

I do collect some marine stuff, but mostly because my driveway is a Miocene marine graveyard. A couple truckloads of shell fill were used to raise our driveway years ago, and I regularly pull out some decent fossil shells on my way to the mailbox. After filling several boxes of those, I've gotten pickier about those too.

[digit]

Your approach of increasing selectivity throughout the day seems reasonable. I usually have two fairly constant grades of fossil material. Something novel, large, or very well preserved ends up in my "keeper" category and takes its place in my small (but memorable) permanent collection. Other items like nice chunks of turtle shell with pretty patterns, or less than A-grade horse teeth, broken megs, etc. that are still nice fossils but would end up bulking-up my collection beyond my meager needs end up going in my "giveaway" bags. Usually, these end up getting distributed to friends with kids of the right age but sometimes they never make it home from the river and are handed to people in canoes as they pass by on the river while we are fossil hunting.

I initially kept just about every bit of fossilized bone or barely discernible fossil but as I've continued to collect I've periodically gone through my collection to pick out just a few of the best of each type of fossil. Unless a particular piece has a strong memory of its collection associated with it, pieces that have been superseded with better examples get shuffled off to the "giveaway" bags for distribution. I've become increasingly more picky about what I keep and more generous as to what I leave in the river for others to possibly happen upon in their sifters--I practice "catch and release" fossil hunting. Since I've switched from a 1/4" to a 1/2" mesh on my screen I leave behind virtually all of the smaller teeth that pass momentarily through my sifter.

As soon as dugong paperweights go viral you can sign me up as a supplier. I have a site that is littered with them (several in each shovelful of gravel). I keep some of the more interesting looking ones as paperweight gifts (so I'm trying my best to develop the market).

Cheers.

-Ken

[Bone Daddy]

In a world that is going increasingly-paperless, I think the window for the dugong paperweight craze has probably closed. Hopefully nostalgia wins out.

I am moving in a similar direction, collection-wise. I really don't keep much, unless there is a story connected to it, or it has some significance to me. I keep a lot of micro-fossils and tiny bits, because I find a lot of them and some are very difficult to ID, so they present a challenge. Some of the rarest stuff is also the smallest (so I have read), so maybe I can continue to get lucky with small stuff. I look for that big awesome skull or display piece, but I keep finding little weird things. LOL.

We found a dugong rib hole once. The place was literally paved with them. We nicknamed it "The Rib Shack" and their daily special was "All You Can Eat Ribs". Unless somebody else finally cleaned it out, there are a couple hundred pieces still laying there waiting for a home as a paperweight.

[digit]

They could also make really heavy and probably unmelodious wind chimes as well. My dugong rib spot has lately been giving up mammoth tooth chunks (quite the upgrade ) but it still appears on my GPS under the site name "RING" because on my second trip to the site I found a gold wedding band (and a tie tack). I always joke that the rest of the mobster is buried down there somewhere. If I ever turned up any actual evidence of that though I think I'd report it and never go back.

Cheers.

-Ken

[joshuajbelanger]

Yeah, it's funny. He goes for smaller interesting, and I go for big sexy. I only keep teeth if they are a good size and absolutely perfect. I don't keep ribs unless they are curved very nicely. As for other bones, if they don't have gender appeal, I let the river keep them. The world is a beautiful thing, when you are seeing underwater. With all the rocks and bones laid out in front of you, it's much easier to be picky. I find that when I'm just sifting, I tend to keep more smaller stuff. But when I'm snokeing, it's sexy or nothing!!!