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South Texas Upper Cretaceous Bivalve 2.0


CraigHyatt

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I'm still puzzling over your finds. I looked at the other finds you have and see that there is some really different types of mineralization forms, if that's the correct term. Think about this: What if the monkey face thing was the actual animal and the other plate things are concretions building up around it? Or the plates are the trace fossils of it's movements? I think that has been offered as an explanation by others too. Have you got any way of prepping out just the face part?

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I'm still puzzling over your finds. I looked at the other finds you have and see that there is some really different types of mineralization forms, if that's the correct term. Think about this: What if the monkey face thing was the actual animal and the other plate things are concretions building up around it? Or the plates are the trace fossils of it's movements? I think that has been offered as an explanation by others too. Have you got any way of prepping out just the face part?

I am starting to think that's the explanation. I have 4 good samples that I keep turning over and over. I might be able to prep out just the face, but I've never done any prep. Looking at where the specimens are chipped, I get the feeling it's just a cast anyway.

I was going to try and remove some of the matrix to see if there's anything embedded, so I might as well start with the monkey face. If there's nothing embedded in the matrix, that would mean the face itself and the "legs" are likely just casts of an animal feature and, possibly, feeding traces.

I will say that as I look the things over, I might be seeing some spare parts stuck here and there. They might be jointed and might have claws, but hard to tell.

I also wonder why, if these are feeding traces, I don't see them everywhere. Wouldn't the animal leave a long line of tracks all over the place? Why do I find just these short segments with the animal imprint?

Anyway, I will start prepping and see what I find.

Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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You should practice on something else at first. But wait... you have a bunch of these, right? So destroying one would not be too big a loss. Still, it doesn't hurt to learn your tools on something useless.

Normally, when you are prepping out a specimen to reveal more of what is hidden, you are relying on a differential of the consistency of the matrix and object being exposed. At the boundary layer between the two you have a natural flaw that the matrix will want to fall away from the object. If it is purely a cast, then it may merge back into the matrix and you will have no boundary to work off, and just end up tunneling through pure, uniform matrix.

The first tools are screw drivers, exacto knife, and dremmel drill. Then if you find you want to buy something cheap, you can get a vibro pick type of tool, sometimes called a vibro engraver. Then the ultimate tool (which I don't have) is an air scribe. To see good examples of prepping, go to the PREP area of this forum. Some real pros there, and they could give you some tips.

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"You should practice on something else at first. But wait... you have a bunch of these, right? So destroying one would not be too big a loss. Still, it doesn't hurt to learn your tools on something useless."

I am finding so many of these I don't care about breaking them. For some reason, I'm not too attached to the fossils I find. Once I learn all I can from them, I'm done.

I'm actually giving the neighbor kid ammonites for cutting my grass. His mom won't let me give him money. :-)

I'm gonna start with this guy. He has the thinnest matrix. First I'll give him a good soak to remove the dry mud. Then I can see if there's a margin around the face. I already see a margin around the "bag" above the face. I'll remove that first.

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Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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As you proceed with the dissection, take photos along the way because you can't put it back. Also, it will be fun to see.

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As you proceed with the dissection, take photos along the way because you can't put it back. Also, it will be fun to see.

Way ahead of you. :-)

Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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As you proceed with the dissection, take photos along the way because you can't put it back. Also, it will be fun to see.

I'm still puzzling over your finds. I looked at the other finds you have and see that there is some really different types of mineralization forms, if that's the correct term. Think about this: What if the monkey face thing was the actual animal and the other plate things are concretions building up around it? Or the plates are the trace fossils of it's movements? I think that has been offered as an explanation by others too. Have you got any way of prepping out just the face part?

I did my best with a pocket knife and sandpaper. :-)

I hope you can tell from context what the photos are. Basically, each time I removed a major chunk, I photographed both broken edges. In some cases, I did some sanding in hopes the smoothed edge might reveal internal structure.

Bottom line: I think it's a cast.

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Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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Dissection continued....

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Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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Very nice finds Craig !

I also have a face monster : post-21013-0-76436300-1463952831.jpeg

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"We only well see with the heart, the essential is invisible for the eyes."

 

In memory of Doren

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So the best current theory is this is a cast of an animal's anatomy along with fodinichnia[1]. It's possible the anatomy print represents the animal's mouth parts, but could be some other structure. The fodinichnia would be formed as the animal swept food to its mouth using limbs ending in points. This explains the shape of the positive cast. So the creature is happily feeding on a somewhat muddy seabed, elbows on the table, when along comes a starfish or something and snatches him (or her) out of the mud. Doesn't even say excuse me. It's like the face-in-the-lasagne mafia hit in reverse. Anyway, the muddy mold rapidly fills with fine sand, which explains the excellent detail of the positive cast. Eventually, as layers accumulate, the positive cast turns to sandstone. Then, 66 million years later, I trip over it, and here we are. Now I just need to figure out what the animal was.

[1] feeding traces, thanks doushantuo.... cough ocd cough cough

Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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Very nice finds Craig !

I also have a face monster : attachicon.gifface monster.jpeg

Awww. I see a future paleontologist. :-)

Here's mine. He knows how to dig up bones.

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Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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We would love to see some pictures of the ammonites you are finding.

Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt
behind the trailer, my desert
Them red clay piles are heaven on earth
I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt

Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers

 

image.png.0c956e87cee523facebb6947cb34e842.png May 2016  MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png.a47e14d65deb3f8b242019b3a81d8160.png.b42a25e3438348310ba19ce6852f50c1.png May 2012 IPFOTM5.png.fb4f2a268e315c58c5980ed865b39e1f.png.1721b8912c45105152ac70b0ae8303c3.png.2b6263683ee32421d97e7fa481bd418a.pngAug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png.af5065d0585e85f4accd8b291bf0cc2e.png.72a83362710033c9bdc8510be7454b66.png.9171036128e7f95de57b6a0f03c491da.png Oct 2022

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We would love to see some pictures of the ammonites you are finding.

I posted most of them here already. I'll snap a photo of a few for you. They are sphenodiscus. :-)

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Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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I'm liking the feeding ichnofossil theory. I can't see an alternative after seeing the dissection of the fossil.

Many ichnofossils are never solved, as to the creature that made them.

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Whether these features in the rock have anything to do with ammonites is still just a question.

Based on ammonite anatomy, the "beak" was the entrance when feeding. The radula teeth were inside the mouth, not something that was used to flare out, dig into the mud, and pull food into the "beak". That is what all the tentacles performed. Also, keep in mind that these radula teeth were relatively small.

This squid is much bigger than any Escondido Formation ammonite. Consider the relative proportions of anatomy to what you're finding. ;)

I would research relatively recent Escondido Formation papers (related to the Eagle Pass area) and contact some of the authors. There may be a chance that one of them could help solve these interesting rock features.

The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true.  -  JJ

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Whether these features in the rock have anything to do with ammonites is still just a question.

Based on ammonite anatomy, the "beak" was the entrance when feeding. The radula teeth were inside the mouth, not something that was used to flare out, dig into the mud, and pull food into the "beak". That is what all the tentacles performed. Also, keep in mind that these radula teeth were relatively small.

This squid is much bigger than any Escondido Formation ammonite. Consider the relative proportions of anatomy to what you're finding. ;)

I would research relatively recent Escondido Formation papers (related to the Eagle Pass area) and contact some of the authors. There may be a chance that one of them could help solve these interesting rock features.

Agree. Needs a lot of background before getting too excited. I'll see what area experts have to say. I cleaned up a lot of my overly speculative posts. :-)

In re the tentacles, I thought a possible scenario was the ammonite anchoring itself and pinning the prey while feeding. This might help apply pressure with the radula. So, for all I know, the "face" could be a print from the prey itself. Of course, you'd think the prey would orient randomly, but maybe the tasty bits were in the back. :-)

I hear what you are saying about radula feature size. I will spend some effort behind the scenes before cluttering up the thread with wild speculation.

Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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Craig,

It's standard procedure to just leave old posts as-is, except to add an edit. Removing or modifying old posts makes the threads hard to read. Wild conjure is sometimes useful reading because people can see that somebody has already covered that ground.

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Craig,

It's standard procedure to just leave old posts as-is, except to add an edit. Removing or modifying old posts makes the threads hard to read. Wild conjure is sometimes useful reading because people can see that somebody has already covered that ground.

You are right of course. Hope I didn't mess things up too much. Basically, the deleted posts were my personal speculation that the specimens here are feeding traces left by ammonites. There's not much evidence to support that view, and the fossils could have many other possible origins. As tmaier has said, the origin may never be solved.

Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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I've worked in both science and engineering research, and I've noticed that engineers delete any blind alleys during the development process. Development portfolios only contain the things that were a success. In science, the blind alleys are left documented as a warning for others. You just retract that path, and offer the logic to why it is the wrong path. I've often inherited other people's designs and had to build on them, and it's frustrating to know that the original designer threw out 90% of their thought process, and experimentation because it didn't document the final design. Now I have to wander down those same dark alleys. :o

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It's been my experience as both an engineer and research scientist that both engineers and researchers are required to keep signed and dated lab notebooks recording all results. This is an industry and academic standard. In my experience, engineers often publish rejected designs as a means of justifying the winning design.

Other than recording results in notebooks, I haven't known too many research scientists who went out of their way to publish all their failed experiments, even privately within a research organization. That would be impractical, since at least 9 out of 10 experiments fail and 99 out of 100 wouldn't be unusual. Of course every company and research facility is different, and your experience may vary.

I plan to continue investigating whether or not ammonites are responsible for the fossils I have found. I am not yet convinced that isn't the case, and I believe it's worth pursuing. I have planned out exactly what I'm going to do, and I have a great track record at solving "impossible" problems. It's not in my makeup to throw up my hands and to say something is "unsolvable".

Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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It's been my experience as both an engineer and research scientist that both engineers and researchers are required to keep signed and dated lab notebooks recording all results. This is an industry and academic standard. In my experience, engineers often publish rejected designs as a means of justifying the winning design.

Other than recording results in notebooks, I haven't known too many research scientists who went out of their way to publish all their failed experiments, even privately within a research organization. That would be impractical, since at least 9 out of 10 experiments fail and 99 out of 100 wouldn't be unusual. Of course every company and research facility is different, and your experience may vary.

I plan to continue investigating whether or not ammonites are responsible for the fossils I have found. I am not yet convinced that isn't the case, and I believe it's worth pursuing. I have planned out exactly what I'm going to do, and I have a great track record at solving "impossible" problems. It's not in my makeup to throw up my hands and to say something is "unsolvable".

Kudos, for your enthusiasm and persistence. It is admirable...(please just don't delete your posts in the future). ;)

The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true.  -  JJ

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