jkfoam Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 For years I have had the fossils pictured below labeled as unknown otoliths . They were collected from the Wheelock Member of the Cook Mountain Formation, Claiborne Group, Eocene in Brazos County, TX. Recently I collected several more from the Hurricane Lentil (Which is just above the Wheelock Member) in Houston County, TX. I believe them to be otoliths but I really don't know if this is correct. They don't show all the attributes of otoliths as described by D.L. Frizzell in his article on otoliths in the Journal of Paleontology, Vol. 39, No. 4, July, 1965. After I recently found the additional specimens I renewed my efforts to positively ID the fossils but to no avail. I am woefully inadequate in knowledge of marine vertebrates and I am hopeful that one of our members can point me in the right direction For a reference in scale the circle in the slide is 1/2 inch in diameter. Jim 1 The Eocene is my favorite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Jim, I wish I could be helpful to you on this, but I really have no idea. I could see it being an otolith, but then I can see it not being one. How thick are these? It is hard to tell from the pictures. Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 If you can't find a match with fish otoliths, you might try squid statoliths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldigger Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Agatized interiors of spirifer sp. brachiopods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darktooth Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 I am leaning towards caldidder's response. I like Trilo-butts and I cannot lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkfoam Posted May 24, 2016 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 Sixgill pete, I estimate their thickness to be about 0.5 mm. Jim The Eocene is my favorite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Agatized interiors of spirifer sp. brachiopods? I am leaning towards caldidder's response. The Eocene age would rule that out. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkfoam Posted May 24, 2016 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 Al Dente. I Googled Squid statoliths and cephalopod statoliths. I did not even know there was such a thing. There were some interesting references I'm going to have to look into and some of the images are suggestive of what I have found. However my find would be on the upper limits of size for other known statoliths. Thanks for the direction. Jim The Eocene is my favorite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 I think Al Dente's idea is not bad. Somehow the shape would be good for Statoliths, but the problem is with the dimensions. The largest Statoliths I've seen are about 2.75 mm in total length, while the largest of the specimens in question is 8.79 mm in length (if I calculate correctly). POTENTIAL OF STATOLITHS FOR INTERPRETING COLEOID EVOLUTION A BRIEF REVIEW - M. R. Clarke.pdf 3 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinodigger Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Yep otoliths no doubt. Contact dr. Gary stringer otoliths expert at University of Louisiana Monroe (I think). He'll concur with an ID. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 maybe Coco will weigh in on these. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Hi, I can't help... I have never seen an otolith of this shape, but the hollow in the middle (on the right view) can remind an otolith... Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkfoam Posted May 25, 2016 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 Thanks to all for their interest and replies. Dinodigger, I will contact Dr. Gary Stringer, even if he can't help maybe I can get an up to date otolith bibliography from him. Coco, yeah, that hollow or depression in the middle lead me to my initial ID of otolith. Jim The Eocene is my favorite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Let us know when you will have his answer ! Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 fish scale? "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2016/mpo-dfo/Fs41-31-133-eng.pdf for those interested: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/292077936_Fish_otolith_assemblages_from_Recent_NE_Atlantic_sea_bottoms_A_comparative_study_of_palaeoecology Edited May 28, 2016 by doushantuo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 https://orbi.ulg.ac.be/bitstream/2268/14701/1/32otolithe3.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkfoam Posted May 28, 2016 Author Share Posted May 28, 2016 Dinodigger, CoCo, Herb, Doushantuo, I have e-mailed Dr. Stringer at U. of Lousiana, Monroe, but I have not heard back from him on his opinion. When I do I'll let all know what he says. Herb, I appreciate your thoughts about it being a possible fish scale. I can see some suggestion of fish scale myself but I still believe I have an undescribed otolith. Doushantua, thanks for those otolith reference articles. Their enclosed reference lists are particularly of interest to me. However I must say that after reading most of them I think I am now suffering from otolith overload. (LOL) Jim 1 The Eocene is my favorite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkfoam Posted May 30, 2016 Author Share Posted May 30, 2016 Dr. Stringer has replied to my e-mail inquiry about my specimen and he was very helpful indeed. Dr. Stringer confirmed that my specimen is a Teleost otolith. He further stated that it belongs to the family Diretmidae and most probably is Diretmus serratus. Jim 2 The Eocene is my favorite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 You was right ! Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Isn't this forum great? I learned something about otoliths, and learned about statoliths which I had never heard of before. Y'all are wonderful. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifbrindacier Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Isn't this forum great? I learned something about otoliths, and learned about statoliths which I had never heard of before. Y'all are wonderful. Don Surely, this forum is great. "On ne voit bien que par le coeur, l'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." (Antoine de Saint-Exupéry) "We only well see with the heart, the essential is invisible for the eyes." In memory of Doren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatinformationist Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 You folks never cease to amaze me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurosaki Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 I wish to add some notes to your beautiful otoliths, this species was originally described by Muller (1999), as "genus Caproidarum" serratus, and now as a member of the family Diretmidae. This is the only species currently known from your related material. Below you will have a link to this original publication, which is in German. See p. 129, figs 18-21. http://www.geologie-natur-mitteldeutschland.de/files/mueller-1999-ichthyofaunen-tertiaer-usa.pdf I believe in this publication, there are also some relevant otoliths that can be found in your material! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkfoam Posted June 3, 2016 Author Share Posted June 3, 2016 Kurosaki, Thanks for the information. I especially appreciate the reference sited. The included bibliography is most helpful. Jim The Eocene is my favorite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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