shorty Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 This was found while hunting concretions in the Mazon Creek area Sunday. The back looks like a concretion. The little things are kind of bulbous & protrude from the background. A man at the site said it's exterior of a tree, but it's unusual to have the 'jugs' attached. (his word, not mine!) He didn't know the name of it. I can't find anything like this in my plant book, and googling 'fossil jugs' isn't helping! Anyone have any ideas? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOROPUS Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Those "jugs" seem to be crinoid or blastoid "heads" or "aboral cup". Crinoid Anatomy file.Click HERE!The thing is...Who can ID them? Perhaps Solius with his enourmous knowledge on Paleozoic critters can... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 shorty............ I would say they look more like some form of 3d preserved ...' plant seeds'...... maybe 'Cordaicarpus'.....obviously I dont know the paeloenviromental conditions in your area like you do, so Im guessing.... Ive found calamites Bulbils, or reproductive parts that detach from the tree, drift downstream and settle in a margin and root forming a new plant, although I only have a cross section of the inside, and I would of thought they look 'like that' on the outside...they were attached to branchlets, not the main trunk, the one below is still on a twig...... Inside a Bulbil...... Some crushed, split or sectioned seeds Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamalama Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Initial observations lead me to agree with Moropus that it's an calax from a Crinoid or Blastoid. Second look makes me think about a rugose coral. But I think Terry might be closest with his Cordaicarpus theory. A seed or fruiting body of some sort? -Dave __________________________________________________ Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPheeIf I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPheeCheck out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Menser Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Actually it is not a fossil...It is the remains of the smallest stock of moonshine jugs ever discovered... On the other hand I lean towards Crinoids. Be true to the reality you create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorty Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Terry Dactyll, Wow! you have a nice collection of concretions! I've been looking at seeds, too but I'm not finding a good match. If it helps, these come from the Francis Creek shale, in Illinois. Thanks for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorty Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Moropus & Shamalama, Thanks for the help! From what I've read, a crinoid would be very unusual here. I think there's only been one described http://www.archive.org/stream/crinoidfromp...29lane_djvu.txt I'd love it to be a crinoid, though! Is it safe to wear away at the soft grey rock with a toothbrush to look for more details? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorty Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Actually it is not a fossil...It is the remains of the smallest stock of moonshine jugs ever discovered... Maybe leprechaun moonshine jugs?! Quick! I'll list them on ebay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Shorty ......... I found this.... This ones crushed, where yours is 3d http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/maz...aicarpusgutbiem I have very often found concretions with the fossil on the outside..... I think this is what has happened to yours, and im pretty sure it is some form of seed.... Maybe email the ..... Field Museum? Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanK Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 This was found while hunting concretions in the Mazon Creek area Sunday. The back looks like a concretion. The little things are kind of bulbous & protrude from the background. A man at the site said it's exterior of a tree, but it's unusual to have the 'jugs' attached. (his word, not mine!) He didn't know the name of it. I can't find anything like this in my plant book, and googling 'fossil jugs' isn't helping! Anyone have any ideas? Thanks! My opinion it's not a tree. What strata is your specimen from? Roman http://s1143.photobu.../donbassfossil/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorty Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 My opinion it's not a tree. From what strata is your specimen? Francis Creek Shale, Pennsylvanian formation in Will County, Illinois. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest N.AL.hunter Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 What interesting fossils!! They do appear to have "stem" or "stalk" sections like Crinoids do. I would say not Blastoids. Could be some type of Cystoid. I hope you find out and we will all learn something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamalama Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Did you find this in the strata or loose as float on the surface of a pile? Does it look like the other rocks where you found it? These questions are just in case someone dumped some leftovers from another trip into a pile that you found. I've seen (and done) it before but it's not malicious, just an easy way to get rid of stuff one doesn't need anymore. Could you try a side shot picture of the rock and fossils? The two you post are only one perspective and another angle or two would help. Terry - I can almost see it being Ginkgo seeds... but they look longer and shaped oddly. -Dave __________________________________________________ Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPheeIf I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPheeCheck out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorty Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 I will keep trying to get a clear side view of them. They're oddly shaped. The little stem things don't come straight out of the balls. They all look pushed forward in the same direction. This was found loose on a coal mining spoil pile, on one of the islands in the Mazonia State Park / ComEd cooling lake (map). So it's from pit 11, and should be Essex fauna if it's from the Francis Creek shale. The back looks like the concretions in the area, but I can't tell you for sure it's half a concretion because I only found one side. The grey stuff is similar to the shale the concretions are found in. I'll post some open ferns also found that day for comparison. If it's not from this area, someone would have had to have brought it years ago when the mine was active, or by boat if recently. Then walked quite a ways up a large hill. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I think they are fruiting bodies; when I get a chance, I'll try to find my reference. <EDIT> Take a look at the Halonia fruiting bodies on docdutronc's site: http://monsite.orange.fr/lepidomania/index.jhtml "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanK Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I think they are fruiting bodies; when I get a chance, I'll try to find my reference.<EDIT> Take a look at the Halonia fruiting bodies on docdutronc's site: http://monsite.orange.fr/lepidomania/index.jhtml Agree as for shape of the fruiting bodies, other thing it seems to me that 'fruits' saved very detailed features but there is no tipical for halonia bark at all, so it completely destroyed? And I do not see any system in 'fruits' position - compare with the reconstruction piture. Roman http://s1143.photobu.../donbassfossil/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I think that we are looking at the stem ends of the fruit, and that they are off the tree. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docdutronc Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I think that we are looking at the stem ends of the fruit, and that they are off the tree. I seriously doubt that these forms are plants ..... There should be a close-up photo of these forms, is there bracts ?, like the pine apples !!!! there is a small tail such as fruit ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Here is the best I can do with editing the existing photo: "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorty Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 I apologize for the poor quality pictures. I'll have to borrow a better camera. But here are all different angles. Please let me know which view would help you most & I'll try it on the scanner later tonight. Here are other concretions found in the same spot for comparison. The rock in question is on the left This was found on the other side of the same hill Thanks again for all your help with this! I really do appreciate your time. Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanceH Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Where the "stem" attaches do you seen any pentagonal symmetry which would indicate echinoderm? Maybe they are crinoid bulbs/holdfasts? There's a similar looking "fruiting body" called Porocystis globularis from the lower Cretaceous in Texas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Please let me know which view would help you most... I'm kind of excited about this fossil, so please don't interpret my ardor as impatience . What I would like to see is a couple good close-ups of the "fruits", showing the texture and surface structure up close and personal in good light. See whether your camera might have a Macro setting (often designated by a tulip icon). Even that might not get close enough to show the salient detail; you might experiment with photographing through a magnifier or loupe. See how your scanner does; if you can set the resolution high enough, the scan can then be tightly cropped to reduce the file size while maintaining the details. Again, I think you might just have a really cool fossil on your hands; if so, it will be worth the effort. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kauffy Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 I think that we are looking at the stem ends of the fruit, and that they are off the tree. I agree, especially as this was found in association with other plant material. I dont see how they could be crinoid/blastoid? although* they do resemble the shape wouldnt you go with terrestrial rather than marine if the majority/if not all of the associated fauna is plant? if there were brachiopods and what not being found in the same area then i would agree with some of your hypothesis too... But i would put my money on them being some form of fruting body. Considering these are everywhere where i live, check out these modern examples of the fruiting body off the Eucalypt tree's...very similar in shape and structure. "Turn the fear of the unknown into the excitment of possibility!"We dont stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCFossils Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Your oddity is definately not a concretion from the Francis Creek Shale. it does appear to me to be a calyx of either a crinoid or cystoid. Mazon creek collectors refer to this stone as "wonder stone" (collectors wonder where it came from). It is transported glacial till and is often found out on the spoil piles. I have collected quite a few pieces containing crinoid fragments but have never found one with a calyx. I have also found pieces containing trilobite fragments. Definately a cool find. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kauffy Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Your oddity is definately not a concretion from the Francis Creek Shale. it does appear to me to be a calyx of either a crinoid or cystoid. Mazon creek collectors refer to this stone as "wonder stone" (collectors wonder where it came from). It is transported glacial till and is often found out on the spoil piles. I have collected quite a few pieces containing crinoid fragments but have never found one with a calyx. I have also found pieces containing trilobite fragments. Definately a cool find.Rob Thanks for that Rob, considering i know nothing about the depositional nature of the area i wouldnt have known that were a possiblity...perhaps they are blastoid/cystoid? very interesting! "Turn the fear of the unknown into the excitment of possibility!"We dont stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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