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Pennsylvanian Oddity


shorty

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Let me ask a stupid question please. If you found it in a carboniferous formation, how could it possibly be a crinoid/blastoid?? Is it possible they're some kind of mud wasp/bug burrow. They do resemble some sort of fruiting body, but, is it not possible?? Look how simular they are to Romans recent example. I'd be really tempted to saw one in half and look at the structure inside, might help clear this up.

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I'm afraid I don't have a way to get better pictures for you. I'm open to any ideas, though. (although cutting it in half sounds kind of scary)

Thanks for everyone's input. I really do appreciate it!

Kim

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Let me ask a stupid question...

There are no stupid questions.....only stupid people askign them...... totally kidding...I just couldn't resist ;)

If you found it in a carboniferous formation, how could it possibly be a crinoid/blastoid??

I don't think I understand the question. Most of the crinoids that I've ever found are actually from the Carboniferous.

Can you clarify what you meant to ask here?

I'm afraid I don't have a way to get better pictures for you. I'm open to any ideas, though. (although cutting it in half sounds kind of scary)

Thanks for everyone's input. I really do appreciate it!

Kim

Cutting it in half would likely prove to be more frustrating and fruitless (no pun intended) than hoped. I have seen specimens that look very nice on the outside but which are only molds of the original item being destroyed by slicing for the sake of getting a peek inside, only to find a mass of sand (or whatever) with no diagnostic help whatsoever.

These things look so distinct, given the area they were found, and the quality of genuine scientists which have studied that stuff, I would think an in-person viewing with one of them would be the most fruitful (again, no pun intended) path you could take at this point.

Do you have access to any research universities or institutions in the area that might have someone willing to take a look?

.

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"Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly."

-- Mr. Edonihce

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I live outside Chicago.

The Field Museum is there, as well as Northeastern Illinois University. I've emailed both requesting assistance, but did not receive a reply. (I'm sure they get overwhelmed with requests from newbies like me.) I sent the emails the person listed in conjunction with the Mazon Creek collections.

I'm going to try bringing it to a meeting of a paleontology group later this month, too.

Any other (better) ways to ask for assistance?

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It sounds like you're on the right track.

Perhaps you can get some contact info from folks at the meeting you're gonna check out. Is it a group that you're already a member of? If not, do you already have a group that you're a member of? If not, joining couldn't hurt.

Another thing is to continue your search on the internet, but with a secret tool added to the mix....places like jstor.org have bunches of pubs with all kinds of info....way more than you'll find with a regular internet search.

The catch is that you need to either be a member of the site, or be part of an institution that has a site license (or whatever they call it).

At the University of Colorado at Boulder where I work, we have a site license....the entire institution gets into jstor.org and other places. Anyone that gets online with one of the publicly available computers on campus can search jstor and get all kinds of pubs online (whereas they couldn't get the same access from home or elsewhere).

If you can get in somewhere like that (university library, etc), you may be able to get the info you need on this thing.

Eventually (perhaps this winter), I will take a whack at the search, but just don't have much time for it right now.

.

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scale in avatar is millimeters

____________________

Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser'

____________________

WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org)

____________________

"Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly."

-- Mr. Edonihce

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...I don't think I understand the question. Most of the crinoids that I've ever found are actually from the Carboniferous.

Can you clarify what you meant to ask here?

Carboniferous at Mason Creek, seems to me that would have been a non-marine environment. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

Cutting it in half would likely prove to be more frustrating and fruitless (no pun intended) than hoped. I have seen specimens that look very nice on the outside but which are only molds of the original item being destroyed by slicing for the sake of getting a peek inside, only to find a mass of sand (or whatever) with no diagnostic help whatsoever.

These things look so distinct, given the area they were found, and the quality of genuine scientists which have studied that stuff, I would think an in-person viewing with one of them would be the most fruitful (again, no pun intended) path you could take at this point.

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Carboniferous at Mason Creek, seems to me that would have been a non-marine environment. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

Exactly. :)

I totally agree from what I (and probably most folks here) know about the Mazon Creek stuff.

That's why the most logical opinion would be that these things are probably plant-related (or at least, land-dwelling-organism-related) .....normally.

However, in this particular case, the collector stated that they found what look like undeniably marine fossils (link) on the other side of the hill from where they found this thing (which is a completely legitimate possibility). That's why there has been discussion about whether people think these things are terrestrial (plant-like) or marine.

Still, as I've already stated, I doubted the echinoderm hypothesis from the beginning. The difference for me though is that I doubted it on the basis of visual inspection of the photographs, whereas it seems like you're counting the marine possibility out because the fossil was found in Carboniferous strata (which could clearly be either).

Yes, if this strata were to be identified by a credible source as being 100% terrestrial (and sorry if it already has and I missed that part), that would put an end to the marine speculations (which, frankly, would make this kind of investigation a lot easier). However, until that time, all we have to go on are the photos and whatever other information has been provided by the collector.

I guess one interesting thing to note would be this. That page seems to suggest that it's not such a goofy notion that one could find fossils from marine organisms in the Mazon Creek assemblage.

I still don't think that's what we have here, but just to make the point that a marine origin can't be ruled out simply on the basis of it having been found in the Mazon Creek area.

.

____________________

scale in avatar is millimeters

____________________

Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser'

____________________

WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org)

____________________

"Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly."

-- Mr. Edonihce

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Carboniferous at Mason Creek, seems to me that would have been a non-marine environment. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

It is possible there was a marine transgression in the Francis shale. It's known to occur in other formations of contemporary age like in the Ames formation of the Pittsburgh area where several cycles of marine transgression and regression are recorded in the layered sediments. I think they are fruiting bodies or seeds. Love the super close up pics!

-Dave

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If I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPhee

Check out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/

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The Mazon Creek area has 2 different sections. I found my fossil in the "Essex" area of the Mazon Creek region. Here's a link for the info below

Statistical analysis has shown two different assemblages of fossils from the Mazon Creek area divided into the Braidwood Biota and the Essex Biota; each of these is a different ecosystem with a unique assortment of flora and fauna. ....

From the flora and fauna present, one can deduce the different environments associated with the two different collections. Such paleoenvironmental studies were first performed by C.W. Shabica. The Braidwood biota is thought to come from a coal swamp forest that is a mixture of a terrestrial and freshwater environments, located above sea level and close to the shore. The Essex environment is thought to be a sub-aqueous, interchannel flood plain inhabited mainly by freshwater biota but also by marine biota for brief periods because of storms which blew the sea inland. After such storms, an increase in sediment brought down to the delta like environment would bring freshwater, terrestrial remains and sediment with which to bury and fossilize the marine animals temporarily inhabiting the area. Because of the constantly changing environments in the interdistributary bay, an area where many different sources of water meet, the environment was unable to support large animal populations though small local populations were possible for brief periods in time.

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The Mazon Creek area has 2 different sections. I found my fossil in the "Essex" area of the Mazon Creek region. Here's a link for the info below

Statistical analysis has shown two different assemblages of fossils from the Mazon Creek area divided into the Braidwood Biota and the Essex Biota; each of these is a different ecosystem with a unique assortment of flora and fauna. ....

From the flora and fauna present, one can deduce the different environments associated with the two different collections. Such paleoenvironmental studies were first performed by C.W. Shabica. The Braidwood biota is thought to come from a coal swamp forest that is a mixture of a terrestrial and freshwater environments, located above sea level and close to the shore. The Essex environment is thought to be a sub-aqueous, interchannel flood plain inhabited mainly by freshwater biota but also by marine biota for brief periods because of storms which blew the sea inland. After such storms, an increase in sediment brought down to the delta like environment would bring freshwater, terrestrial remains and sediment with which to bury and fossilize the marine animals temporarily inhabiting the area. Because of the constantly changing environments in the interdistributary bay, an area where many different sources of water meet, the environment was unable to support large animal populations though small local populations were possible for brief periods in time.

Great explanation, thanks. As if this stuff couldn't get any more complicated. :o

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^^^^^ I know what you mean ^^^^^^

I've seen places where the transgression/regression was so frequently changing that you can mark it every foot or so in the strata.

Sheesh! It's like, come on and make up your mind - oh great sea!!

If everything were static, we'd always know exactly what we could find in a given locality (of course, everything would have died off a long time ago and we wouldn't even be here then). Unfortunately, we have to be OK finding marine organisms in predominantly terrestrial localities once in a while, and vica/versa.

A couple months ago, I found marine gastropods and bivalves in the same four square inch piece of matrix (which we thought was strictly terrestrial) as the leaves that we were hunting. ....oh, and that was in Pennsylvanian stuff here in Colorado.

Almost every Pennsylvanian locality I have ever been to here in CO, whether marine or terrestrial, has had what I call a sister locality within blocks of the other type (marine or terrestrial). Usually, the marine stuff has much better preservation since it is usually limestone and shale whereas most of the terrestrial Pennsylvanian stuff around here is in a very fossil-unfriendly, gritty sand/siltstone (well, and it's usually relatively soft plant parts in the first place).

.

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scale in avatar is millimeters

____________________

Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser'

____________________

WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org)

____________________

"Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly."

-- Mr. Edonihce

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  • 1 month later...

We have an ID!

According to Jack Wittry, who recently published a book on Mazon Creek plants, it's called Halonia tuberculata. He says it represents the bases either of small abscised vegetative branches or branches of cones on the bark of the lycopsid tree Lepidophloios.

Here's a link to a photo with id that looks really similar

http://www.museum.state.il.us/databases/geology/mazoncreek/graphical/record_abbr.php?catalog_number=15860

Thanks to everyone for their help & input.

Kim

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That's wonderful news; good job! And, niiiice fossilpost-423-1260154946731.gif

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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Shorty......Mystery solved.... well done..... what else have you been finding recently?......

Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... :)

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Very cool! :)

Thanks for the update, Shorty.

Figured it was plant....somehow....but never having seen it, and not seeing it in person makes it difficult. Though the photo doesn't look 'same', it is similar enough. The little 'rings' look like a good match, I just don't see as much 3D to see them as clearly as yours. So, do you have something for size reference (I may have missed it or forgotten...I looked at it yesterday and am just getting around to responding this morning)?

.

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scale in avatar is millimeters

____________________

Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser'

____________________

WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org)

____________________

"Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly."

-- Mr. Edonihce

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I was lucky enough to have Mr. Wittry look at the fossil in person last month. He said he hadn't seen anything like it before. It must have stuck in his mind because he sent an email with the id yesterday!

Mr. Edonihce, the 2 larger bumps are about 8 mm across. You're right, the museum example doesn't look as 3-D as mine. I'll send you a picture with a scale.

Terry Dactyll, I haven't found anything exciting recently. I look for fossil in the state park and "fossil season" is March - September. This time of the year it's open for hunters with guns, so you won't catch me wandering around. Also, I could use a fossil hunting buddy in the spring if anyone is in the area.

Thanks again everyone's help with this!

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Mr. Edonihce...I'll send you a picture with a scale.

I know the mystery is already solved, but it might still be interesting to see both your specimen and the example item measured together to see their relative sizes.

If not possible, no big deal.....I know it's overkill anyway.

.

____________________

scale in avatar is millimeters

____________________

Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser'

____________________

WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org)

____________________

"Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly."

-- Mr. Edonihce

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In Shabica's book, Fig. 5A.3, has an illustration of Trigonocarpus sp. seeds, and gives a top view that looks a lot like the original photo. I searched the Mazon Creek database, and their collection of Trigonocarpus look nothing like this illustration, but they are all laying on their sides.

The fact that your's are spread out and very 3-D makes me think it is the Trigonocarpus...

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Shorty.....Jack Wittry put together an excellent book on the mazon creek flora....one of the guys who collected at crockhey opencast did a 'trade' with the Field Museum and as a consequnce became aware of this and ordered everyone who collected there a copy....There's some beautiful fossils to look at as well as reconstructions and detailed information contained within it...

ISBN 1-932433-71-6

post-1630-12603585977818_thumb.jpg

Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... :)

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Shorty.....Jack Wittry put together an excellent book on the mazon creek flora...

Yep. I'm pretty sure this is the same fellow Shorty already mentioned...

We have an ID!

According to Jack Wittry, who recently published a book on Mazon Creek plants

I was lucky enough to have Mr. Wittry look at the fossil in person last month

.

____________________

scale in avatar is millimeters

____________________

Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser'

____________________

WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org)

____________________

"Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly."

-- Mr. Edonihce

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Yep! That's the guy who did the id! :)

I even bought a copy of his book & had it signed that night, too. (I'm heading towards fossil geek-dome, for sure)

I joined E.S.C.O.N.I. (Earth Science Club of Northern Illinois) over the summer so I could learn more about Mazon Creek fossils. Jack Wittry is also a member.

With the encouragement of people here, I brought the fossil to a meeting and asked for help. No one knew what it was, but finally someone said something like, "Go ask Jack - he knows everything!" (ok, maybe they really didn't say 'everything', but fossil plants from Mazon Creek for sure)

Anyway, he didn't recognize it either, but he was very nice. So I gave up hope until a few days ago when he emailed me the info!

Mr. Edonihce, you asked about the size of my fossil compared to the example on the state museum's website. yes, as best I can tell from the website, the little round bits seem about the same size.

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Tim,

Thanks for the pictures! I looked at that one a while ago, too. But, my fossil doesn't seem to have any ridges. They're just round. I'm no expert, so I cant say for sure, but the images of the tops of that one always seem to have ridges.

Thanks!

Kim

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Yeah, the ridges are pretty distinctive.

I've found many that I think may be the inside of this seed, as there are corresponding convex lines.

Whatever they are, they sure are pesky!

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