Welsh Wizard Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 There was a thread on here a short while ago that mentioned living fossils and I have a question that I thought someone may know the answer to. There are some famous living fossils out there such as the Coelocanth and the Ginkgo but out of interest, has anyone worked out how many of today's living creatures have been found in the fossil record? Thanks Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 New species are being discovered every day . DOES anybody know of a case of Recent speciation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchiornis Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 New species are being discovered every day . DOES anybody know of a case of Recent speciation? The London Underground Mosquito. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raggedy Man Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 The topic about living fossils I believe was to abstain from using the term"living fossil" as it is incorrect. ...I'm back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Ask my wife. She'll tell you all about me. Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 There was a thread on here a short while ago that mentioned living fossils and I have a question that I thought someone may know the answer to. There are some famous living fossils out there such as the Coelocanth and the Ginkgo but out of interest, has anyone worked out how many of today's living creatures have been found in the fossil record? Thanks Nick It's a bit tricky, I think. I am sure there are plenty of extant species that are either identical to those that *might* be found in the fossil record. I say "might" because the fossil record is just a tiny, tiny subset of all the creatures that have lived on this earth. Secondly, as a rule, there's no DNA available in fossils to compare to extant species and confirm identity. Thirdly, animal and plant forms and identities are fluid, as plants and animals evolve continually, so there's considerable physical variation, even within a species. Also, for example, giant dragonflies existed before the O2 atmospheric concentration changed. Though different in size, they might be the same as modern species. You might find a fossil that looks *similar* to a modern species that might or might not be the same species. Without DNA, there's no confirmation--we only have the physical comparison. Lastly, you should not forget microscopic life which makes up the vast majority of earth's biomass. Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 1,230,321,062.5 -- I checked twice!! Ynot Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 1,230,321,062.5 -- I checked twice!! Ynot That half species is my brother in law. Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldigger Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 How come Ynot gets all the good jokes? You need to up your game Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 How come Ynot gets all the good jokes? You need to up your game Tony What can I say-- Ynot has the sense of humor in this psychosis. Tony Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 What can I say-- Ynot has the sense of humor in this psychosis. Tony I'm schizophrenic and so am I. :-) Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I'm schizophrenic and so am I. :-) Only one of Me is schizophrenic! But which one? We do not know. Tony Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Wizard Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 Nice one guys. I'll chalk that one up as a don't know then. I was just interested to see if anyone was aware of any work that had been done on the subject. I was only asking about work on the current fossil record comparing it to current living organisms. I know it's a big task but someone may have done some work. Thanks Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Nice one guys. I'll chalk that one up as a don't know then. I was just interested to see if anyone was aware of any work that had been done on the subject. I was only asking about work on the current fossil record comparing it to current living organisms. I know it's a big task but someone may have done some work. Thanks Nick Well one of my answers was serious. The question, as asked, is ambiguous. The answer you get is only as good as the question. Can you clarify?1. Are you including fossil micro-organisms? 2. Are you considering giant, miniature or other fossil variants of extant species? Is your criterion for "same species" morphology or morphology and genetics? 3. Are you considering *only* fossilized remains found and confirmed (or somewhat confirmed) as identical to extant species? 4. What do you mean by "current"? Do you include extinct modern species like the Tasmanian Tiger? Do you include ancient species like the Wooly Mammoth? 5. Do you include extant species *hypothesized* to have remained unchanged from ancient times, but for which there is no fossil record? Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Hey Nick, Most of the flora and fauna alive today has been around long enough for there to be fossils of them. There are a lot of things that have been around for much longer that are still basically the same as they were (?) millions of years ago. Horseshoe crabs, cockroaches, horsetails, coelacanth are a couple of examples. It would take multiple lifetimes to try to put together a list with all of the extant species that have identical fossil ancestors. Tony PS Sorry about the joke-- Ynot could not resist the temptation. Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 New species are being discovered every day . DOES anybody know of a case of Recent speciation? It has been said the concept of 'living fossils' is specious. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Most animal types actually have dead fossil relatives. Many animals aren't generally called living fossils while they do have ancient counterparts and haven't changed much in the time inbetween. I find that "living fossils" as a term is mainly just for a number of iconic animals that serve as an example of how animals that are really good at surviving don't change that much over long geologic time spans. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Here is that thread http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/66541-lets-make-living-fossils-term-extinct/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Most animal types actually have dead fossil relatives. Many animals aren't generally called living fossils while they do have ancient counterparts and haven't changed much in the time inbetween. I find that "living fossils" as a term is mainly just for a number of iconic animals that serve as an example of how animals that are really good at surviving don't change that much over long geologic time spans. That last sentence is the best answer IMHO. Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 "And it is in fresh water that we find seven genera of Ganoid fishes, remnants of a once preponderant order: and in fresh water we find some of the most anomalous forms now known in the world, as the Ornithorhynchus and Lepidosiren, which, like fossils, connect to a certain extent orders now widely separated in the natural scale. These anomalous forms may almost be called living fossils; they have endured to the present day, from having inhabited a confined area, and from having thus been exposed to less severe competition." Darwin, "Origin", 1859 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Homo sapien exist in the fossil record, so am I a living fossil? Inquisitive high school sophomores (if such a thing exists) want to know. Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 perhaps it is time someone googled Jack Sepkoski's name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Homo sapien exist in the fossil record, so am I a living fossil? Inquisitive high school sophomores (if such a thing exists) want to know. Brent Ashcraft Yes. Women are giving birth to living fossils as we speak. When those children grow old and die they become dead living fossils. When we fight the zombie apocalypse it will be against living dead living fossils. And after a triple tap they will be dead living dead living fossils. Happy to clear that up for you. Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 perhaps it is time someone googled Jack Sepkoski's name Let's take it easy on the old folk with poor eyesight. Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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