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Mosasaur jaw : real ?


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Hello,

I am a new member on this forum and my interest in fossils dates back from my childhood when i looked for fossils everywhere I could. Since I live in an area with almost no rockformations on the surface, I found most of my fossils on vacation. In the last years, I did not really search actively anymore, but now my 9 year old daughter found my fossils and since she is now interested, my attention also raised again.

A few weeks ago, I came across a fossil shop where I saw this amazing piece (see photo) : upper and lower mosasaur jaw with fragments of the skull. I know there are a lot of fakes (especially Mosasaur), but looking at the bone structure and the setting, I think this one is real, but you never know if the techniques of the producers of fake fossils have stepped up... The price is on the high side, but I think about buying it. I think it is about 35-40 kg and about 75 cm long, which makes me think it was not an adult mosasaur. Teeth are also somewhat smaller than the biggest ones I have seen. Interesting is that the far side of the lower jaw has been broken off of the visible underjaw and rotated with the teeth to the backside of the fossil (you can just see some teeth sticking out on the underside of the underjaw)

My question is : do you think it is real ? Any doubts ? What would be a fair retail value for this piece ?

Thanks in advance for your answers !

Hans

post-22198-0-96853700-1470846835_thumb.jpg

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Welcome to the forum

Looks good but without additional closeup photos hard to determine if the teeth are associated with the jaw or if there are other issues. They will also help determine if the upper and lower are associated

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The photo is not sharp enough a bit fuzzy and I think others will want to see more images. The matrix looks disturbed and I'm concerned that the upper and lower are assembled but cannot be sure. If you are serious I would go take additional photos. I would like to hear from others.

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The light conditions were not great, indeed. And since this was on vacation, I cannot go back and take pictures in a second (it is about 800 km from home) but I am planning to go back anyway in a month or two...

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Looks very real, but as others have already mentioned there are some composition scenarios possible (in worst case built from 3 or 2 different jaw fragments/segments), but hard to say from photos and best to check in person. You mentioned the price is on the high side, mind sharing the price range? Perhaps it might help with the "verdict". Btw., if you`ve seen this in Morocco, now would be perhaps the last chance to get one, if not too late already - allegedly Morocco will ban all export of vertebra ("hopefully" only) fossils with the new law, so I expect these will get even harder to come by...

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Looks very real, but as others have already mentioned there are some composition scenarios possible (in worst case built from 3 or 2 different jaw fragments/segments), but hard to say from photos and best to check in person. You mentioned the price is on the high side, mind sharing the price range? Perhaps it might help with the "verdict". Btw., if you`ve seen this in Morocco, now would be perhaps the last chance to get one, if not too late already - allegedly Morocco will ban all export of vertebra ("hopefully" only) fossils with the new law, so I expect these will get even harder to come by...

Do you happen to have any information on this exporting ban? I couldn't find anything when I did a search and now I am curious.

The jaw is definitely real, but like others have mentioned it could be a composite. Almost all jaws sold on the market from Morocco have at least some kind of repair/restoration done to them. Whether the restoration is minor, or major in this case I can't tell, but at least it isn't goat bone with some cheap crowns of Mosasaur teeth added to it to make it look like a jaw haha.

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Do you happen to have any information on this exporting ban? I couldn't find anything when I did a search and now I am curious.

.

There were rumors at the Tucson show and after that the King is getting pressure from different organizations to put a ban on the export of Vertebrate Fossils. That industry is huge in Morocco and entire villages are devoted to collecting and processing fossils. Rumors are strong but will it gets signed into law and to what extent will it cover is yet to be seen. If you have interest in fossils from that region it's a good time to buy and not wait.

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There were rumors at the Tucson show and after that the King is getting pressure from different organizations to put a ban on the export of Vertebrate Fossils. That industry is huge in Morocco and entire villages are devoted to collecting and processing fossils. Rumors are strong but will it gets signed into law and to what extent will it cover is yet to be seen. If you have interest in fossils from that region it's a good time to buy and not wait.

Hmm, it will be interesting to see how everything plays out. Hopefully they don't ban exporting vertebrae fossils outright. The fakes from over there are already numerous and I foresee a serious uptick in fake Moroccan material floating around should this law be signed in.

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Maybe but you will have a lot of real material that dealers are currently stockpiling available . I also assume the black market will be very rampet since money is the language of the region. There is so much Moroccan material around it would be difficult to determine anything. Long term it will have an impact

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Hi,

The fossil is already in EU, so no problem on the export/legal side. The asking price is around $1100, but is stlll negociable I think. Is this worth it (even if composite)?

Hans

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The person offering the jaws for sale still had two more, but these were only lower jaws. Nevertheless they were from an adult specimen as you could tell from the teeth. The one in the back on the right was really impressive (total length around 1,2m and 70 kg) and some skull fragments. This one was on sale for around $1500. The one in the front was around $1000. For me they were somewhat less apealing as they lack the upper jaw, but maybe they are less of a composite ? In the back left he als has a section of spine of a mosasaur.

This is the best photograph I could take in the quite dark environment. The seller is a very experienced fossil collector (he's in his 70s) and does not work via internet.

Any ideas on these ?

Thanks

Hans

post-22198-0-00493900-1470860796_thumb.jpg

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The person offering the jaws for sale still had two more, but these were only lower jaws. Nevertheless they were from an adult specimen as you could tell from the teeth. The one in the back on the right was really impressive (total length around 1,2m and 70 kg) and some skull fragments. This one was on sale for around $1500. The one in the front was around $1000. For me they were somewhat less apealing as they lack the upper jaw, but maybe they are less of a composite ? In the back left he als has a section of spine of a mosasaur.

This is the best photograph I could take in the quite dark environment. The seller is a very experienced fossil collector (he's in his 70s) and does not work via internet.

Any ideas on these ?

Thanks

Hans

It's too hard to tell from this image. Although the one on the left has some teeth going opposite directions which is a bit of a red flag. The original one you posted may not be composite. Have you tried contacting the seller for more info/images?

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Same comment has Bguild, those backward teeth definitely a red flag may tell you something about the jaw next to it.

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It's too hard to tell from this image. Although the one on the left has some teeth going opposite directions which is a bit of a red flag. The original one you posted may not be composite. Have you tried contacting the seller for more info/images?

Dear Bguild,

Thanks for the reaction. The seller is in his late 70s, has no internet access :o and does have a vast collection of himself (from stromatolites, over ammoites, to dinosaures (even half a Trex skull), mammounth teeth/bones and a lot of paleolitical stone tools (too much to mention, really impressive). He is quite knowledgeable in my view, but you never know. Requesting pictures from him will be hard, becasue he has no internet and does not want to trade over the net. I live about 800 kms from him, so it is not easy to get some more pictures. All I can do is call him and ask him for his honest view on the jaws and whether he knows if they are composite...

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Dear Bguild,

Thanks for the reaction. The seller is in his late 70s, has no internet access :o and does have a vast collection of himself (from stromatolites, over ammoites, to dinosaures (even half a Trex skull), mammounth teeth/bones and a lot of paleolitical stone tools (too much to mention, really impressive). He is quite knowledgeable in my view, but you never know. Requesting pictures from him will be hard, becasue he has no internet and does not want to trade over the net. I live about 800 kms from him, so it is not easy to get some more pictures. All I can do is call him and ask him for his honest view on the jaws and whether he knows if they are composite...

Got it. A call couldn't hurt. If he's been working with fossils for awhile and has been selling mosasaur material for some time he may be able to recognize any restoration that has been done to the fossils. That's what I would ask about. I'm thinking at least on the two single jaws that A number of teeth were added to the jaws. The question is though are those teeth associated with the jaw, or from a different animal entirely?

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.... What would be a fair retail value for this piece ?

Thanks in advance for your answers !

Hans

Hans, please keep in mind that value or appraisals are not published on TFF. ;)

Also, no matter how "knowledgeable" a seller may be, there is no substitute for learning as much as you can and seeing authentic pieces in museums, universities, or research papers.

The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true.  -  JJ

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There were rumors at the Tucson show and after that the King is getting pressure from different organizations to put a ban on the export of Vertebrate Fossils. That industry is huge in Morocco and entire villages are devoted to collecting and processing fossils. Rumors are strong but will it gets signed into law and to what extent will it cover is yet to be seen. If you have interest in fossils from that region it's a good time to buy and not wait.

Maybe we should all just move to Morocco. Form our own little village. Cut out the middle man.

Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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Maybe we should all just move to Morocco. Form our own little village. Cut out the middle man.

That's an option but there would be no way we could ship the material out if the country.

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