Troodon Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 A member of the forum asked if I cam put a topic together to help identify claws from the Hell Creek/Lance formation. Its fraught with difficulty since so little has been published and described from these faunas but will attempt to put something together. All subject to discussion and mistakes. Although the focus there is with the dinosaurs of the Upper Maastrichtian its applicable to most of the other faunas of the Campanian and Lower Maastrichtian ages. Ceratopsian indet. This family of dinosaurs include Triceratops, Torosaurus and other large bodied Ceratopsaian yet to be described. Identifying unguals to a Genus/Species level is impossible and these are best identified as Ceratopsian indet. Ceratopsian unguals are best described as being rugose with many pits/holes on the front perimeter of the ungual. There is also a ledge (more pronounced on some than others) on the ventral side as shown by my red marks. I find it difficult to tell the difference between hand and foot unguals of the same size other than the wings are not has pronounced. The more symmetrical the wings are the closer the ungual is to the midline Digit III. Photos are the best way to show what they look like and here are some from my collection Dorsal view Ungual 1 Ventral View Ungual 1 Dorsal View Ungual 2 Ventral View Ungual 2 Dorsal View Ungual 3 Ventral View Ungual 3 An illustration of a Hand (Manus) A photo of a composite foot Leptoceratops indet. A small Ceratopsian in these faunas is a Leptoceratops. Teeth are the most common material found or sold but there are skeletal elements found. Here is an ungual I found in the Hell Creek. The dorsal view is like an isosceles triangle and very compressed. Dorsal View Ventral View Since these are extremely rare here is an additional photo of a associated set of unguals from the Two Medicine Formation An illustration of an campanian foot An illustration of a digit. 11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted September 5, 2016 Author Share Posted September 5, 2016 Edmontosaurus annectens Only one Hadrosaur is known from these faunas Edmontosaurus annectens (Evans et al. 2010) so it makes for an easy identification. Unguals can easily exceed 5" wide and have smooth uniform surfaces on both the ventral or dorsal sides. Holes/grooves are limited to the very front edge and not very pronounced. They also tend to be thinner than ceratopsian with a very triangular cross-section length wise. Foot unguals are very different than Hand and will show you how to distinguish between the two. Foot unguals have two wings with the center digit one being very symmetrical. Again the photos are the best way to see what foot unguals look like. Dorsal View Ungual 1 (Side) Ventral View Ungual 1 (Side) Dorsal View Ungual 2 (Center) Ventral View Ungual 2 (Center) Dorsal View Ungual 3 (center) Ventral View Ungual 3 (center) Hand Unguals .. They can take many different shapes and are different from each other, the front edge can be square and are different for each digit. Typically, but not always, only one wing is present while the other one might be missing or just visible . Here are some examples from my collection. All the images are dorsal views. Although not technically an ungual these are terminal digits of the hand. Dorsal View Ventral View Here is a great photo of a articulated Edmontosaurus. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted September 5, 2016 Author Share Posted September 5, 2016 Theropods: I put this topic together a while back Albertonykus indet. Dakotaraptor steini Not much discovered with this theropod but were fortunate to find both Digit II and III claws. All we have are the photos in the paper. Anzu wyliei A large oviraptorosaurian where partial hands and feet were discovered with the holotypes. The paper provides some information to help identify this its claws but its not extensive. I plan on calling what I have Anzu but a couple of paleontologists have indicated to me that they believe there are additional oviraptors in these faunas and are currently researching a small one. Hand Claws are very distinctive with oviraptors and this one is no different. They are compressed and the thickness varies slightly from proximal to distal end. The most distinctive feature is what I call the trigger on the dorsal edge by the articulation. The articulation surface looks like a half moon notch on the back end. These claws can approach 6" long (straight line) from trigger to tip. These claws are hollow and on larger ones its not uncommon to see one side slightly collapsed. Depending on position the shape of the claw will be slightly different with Digit II being the longest and III being the widest. This is a composite of one I have in my collection An associated pair. Believe its digit II and III. Additional Hand Claws. You can see the trigger on this large one. Digit III Ventral View Foot claws are very different and were once thought to belong to Trex. Identifying these claws can be easy if the claw cooperates with its diagnostic features otherwise it can get difficult. There are two variants in these claws. Features to pay attention to is to look for the Y in the blood groove and the pinch on the ventral surface. The Y is in red and the blood groove should extend toward the articulation surface. The arrows points to the pinch you're look for on the bottom of the claw. The one I always struggle with is the morphology that has a bulbous end. It has the same features but they are harder to see. Not sure if this is positional or a different species. Photos of some foot claws Illustration from Paper on both Hand (F) and Foot Claw (L) I mentioned the possibility of more species. Here are two associated hand claws that are around 1 inch in length. From those in the know do not think these are Anzu but something different. So the message here is that small does not necessarily mean infant. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted September 5, 2016 Author Share Posted September 5, 2016 Tyrannosaur Hand and Foot Claws Tyrannosaurus rex There are two hand claws on T-Rex Digit I & II and both are slightly different. We do not have any evidence from two large Rex's (Sue and Darwin) that these claws exceed 4" (Darwin is a recent discovery, an adult found with one claw) The top claw in the photo is a Digit I (Sue reconstructed) Provided by Pete Larsen with a comparable Nano Claw for comparison purposes T rex Digit II claw Darwin in-situ and cleaned up. ID and picture provide by Pete Larsen Isolated Hand Claw not tied to Skeleton - 3 1/2" Nanotyrannus lancensis These claws have a slightly different shape, more elongated than Rex. Again two claws per Hand. The larger one in the photo is 5" long. The difference in proximal end may simply be Digit I versus II. Picture of the Nano Hand Claws from the Dueling Dinosaurs. I would put the lower claw around 5" long Tyrannosaurid Foot Claws Foot Claws are very difficult to distinguish between Rex and Nano if they are similar in size. The Nano claws are typically small and I have not seen any approach 4". Most claws sold around 3" are most likely Nanotyrannus. Tyrannosaurid Claws can be distinguished by a ledge on the ventral surface. See Photos. This ledge is reduced significantly on Digit I claws. Two Tyrannosaurid Foot Claws most likely Nanotyrannus Digit I (Dew Claw) See that the ledge is significantly reduced. Nanotyrannus Foot claws from the Dueling Dinosaurs Photos of T-rex foot (belongs to Sue) The scale is 10cm Troodon indet. Troodontid material from this fauna is extremely rare and only teeth are commonly found. Claws are extremely rare. I'm not aware of any publication from the Hell Creek/Lance that can help with identification of claws but discovery of a new species (Talos sampsoni) from the Kaiparowits Formation (Late Campanian) of Utah gave some clarity to their legs. Paper : http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024487 Great Photo showing all of the digits with all of the elements. From the Hell Creek a foot claw Digit II. (2 3/8") Compares fairly well with the Talos specimen. A Digit I foot claw from the Judith River Fm, should be very close to the HC species Hand Claws The only publication that I'm aware of that shows Troodon claws is "Guide to common Vertebrate Fossils from Alberta". They show a claw with tendon pits (see arrows) but do not clearly say its hand or foot. Its nothing like the Talos foot specimen pictures so I'll call it hand for now until corrected. Neat either way since its troodon. Its 1" Long and from the Hell Creek The same publication shows this as a hand claw. I would think a Hell Creek one would look similar. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted September 5, 2016 Author Share Posted September 5, 2016 Dromaeosaurid indet. There are two Dromaeosaurid's in these faunas Dakotaraptor and Acheroraptor. Dakotaraptor was covered above. Unfortunately all that was included as part of the holotype with Acheroraptor was Jaw elements and no post cranial material discovered. So we do have claws that most likely are Acheroraptor but cannot say definitively its from that animal. I've seen these claws up to 4" straight line but do not really know what a maximum size might be. Hand claw from a Dromaeosaurid. The half moon (marked in red ) at the articulation identifies it as a hand claw ( 2 1/2" Straight Line ) Another typical example of a hand claw (2 1/4" Straight Line) Dromaeosaurid Foot Claws - I've seen these much longer than 4" not sure if they are Acheroraptor Digit II ( Killing Claw ) is different from Digit III & IV (2 1/2" Length) I do not know what Digit III and IV look like here is a claw that might fit that bill. 1 1/8" Long A typical Dromaeosaurid foot would look like this. Note the differences between Digit II and the other two I have a number of theropod claws that I've labeled "indeterminate" . They may belong to one of the theropods listed below or something yet discovered. The future is full of surprises. Richardoestesia gilmorei Other than teeth and jaws I'm not aware of any post cranial elements being found. Richardoestesia isosceles & Paronychodon sp. These species are just based on isolated teeth and no post cranial elements have been found. They actually have been found together in the same jaw section and are currently under study to be reevaluated as a taxon. Pectinodon bakkeri This species like the ones above is only based on isolated teeth and no post cranial elements have been found. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan from PA Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Thank you so much, Troodon! This is amazing! I can't wait to see the rest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfossilcollector Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Looking forward to the rest of the id info. Thank you Troodon for all that you do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimravis Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Great job as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 Ornithomimid species Struthiomimus sp. I'm not aware of any published paper that describes one from this fauna but the BHI believes Struthiomimus sedens from the Lance Formation discovery is a valid taxon, not everyone is in agreement. Hand and Foot claws are pretty distinctive the only question is does it belong to Struthiomimus or Ornithomimus. Hand Claws Digit I claws are typically shorter in length and have a more bulbous extension on the ventral surface the other two claws (3 1/2" Long) Typical of Digit II and III (4" Long) A replica hand from the BHI Lance Fm specimen The Largest Claw Digit II is 4 1/2" Long Ornithomimus sp. I have not seen any official specimens from this fauna but understand they are similar to Struthio a bit more gracile with straighter claw similar to this one from the Hell Creek. Length 3 3/8" Long Foot Claws Easily recognizable with a triangular pattern and are around 3 1/2" in length. Only Three Digit with Claws on Ornithomimids, they lack Digit I, the Dew Claw. These claws most likely belong to Struthiomimus because they compare well to the BHI skeletons. A complete foot with Metatarsals Black Hills Institute Replica on display Ornithomimid from Mexico, compared to Struthiomimus "C & D" Ornithomimus velox Foot claw, looks more gracile and leaner than Struthiomimus. Dorsal side straighter not convex like Struthio 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFOOLEY Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 This is quite brilliant...many thanks for your efforts. It is clear you are having way too much fun. "I am glad I shall never be young without wild country to be young in. Of what avail are forty freedoms without a blank spot on the map?" ~Aldo Leopold (1887-1948) New Mexico Museum of Natural History Bulletins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zekky Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 What about Ankylosaurs/Nodosaurs? I don't think I've ever seen a claw from this formation form them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 15 hours ago, PFOOLEY said: This is quite brilliant...many thanks for your efforts. It is clear you are having way too much fun. Ha ha thanks and yes enjoying every moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 12 hours ago, zekky said: What about Ankylosaurs/Nodosaurs? I don't think I've ever seen a claw from this formation form them. I'm not finished yet and have an ungual to post just takes a little of time to research everything and getting ready for my September dig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBrewer Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 An amazing post/resource, thanks Troodon John Map of UK fossil sites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 Ankylosaurid Not much has been published in this fauna with respect to the appendicular skeleton. Most documentation you find focuses on skulls or dermal armor and very little material has been discovered from the Hell Creek/Lance Formation. I was able to find this illustration in the book "The Armored Dinosaurs" by Ken Carpenter. It illustrates feet from three Eupolocephalus tutus that are in the AMNH. What is interesting is that there are two distinct type of feet and one theory is that it was due to an ontogenetic change (aging) in ungual shape. From a curved front edge to a more blunt one a lot like what is happening to my bone. I'm fortunate to have a pretty nice ungual from one of these armored beasts so we can get a good look at one. It matches "A" illustration so it could be a young Euoplocephalus but I've yet to see what a Ankylosaurus or Nodosaurid ungual looks like. Dorsal view - 3" Long Ventral View 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darktooth Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Troodon I can clearly see that you put a lot of time and effort into this and you should be commended for you efforts! Thank-you so much for doing this! I like Trilo-butts and I cannot lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted September 10, 2016 Author Share Posted September 10, 2016 On 9/9/2016 at 2:34 PM, darctooth said: Troodon I can clearly see that you put a lot of time and effort into this and you should be commended for you efforts! Thank-you so much for doing this! Thanks just trying to share the knowledge before it turns to mush 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted September 10, 2016 Author Share Posted September 10, 2016 Updated Struthiomimus section, added Ankylosaurus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 Thescelosaurus sp. Hand Elements Not a lot of detail available to show you on hand claws. The elements/claws are small and difficult to ID. Illustration of a complete hand A couple of photos of different specimens from the Black Hills Institute. Have no knowledge if this is a composite or a good representation of one. Foot Elements We have a much clearer picture when it comes to foot claws. The claws are often sold has Pachycephalosaurus and can get confused. Not a lot of comparative material between the two and lots of hearsay on how to tell them apart. I would suspect that with the rariety of Pachy material most sold are Thesc. : overall shape liked a arrowhead : sharply pointed tip : wide lateral flanges : nearly flat ventral surface : deep blood groove An illustration of a complete foot .Table on the measurements for the illustrations. A real complete foot and not a composite Another foot photo not sure what has been composited. A Digit III Claws 2 1/2" Long (Wings look symmetrical) dorsal view Ventral View Edit: These appear to be described has possibly being Pachycephalosaurid... 2" Long Dorsal View See subsequent post.... Ventral View 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 Pachycephalosaurid's To say little is known from this family of dinosaurs from the Hell Creek/Lance Formations is a big understatement. Definitive claw identification from this fauna is non-existant. The range of sizes from the large Pachycephalosaurus wyomingensis to the smaller Dracorex hogwartsia complicate identication. Claw similarities to Thescelosaurus makes matters worst and everyone has their opinion on what they look like. Collectors buying them risk them being Thescelosaurus. The extent of associated skeletal material found is shown in the illustration below. I thought we had some hope with Sandy's feet but in my correspondence with Mike Triebold who worked on the specimen said they could not definitely say it came from that skeleton since there were Thescelosaurus material at that site. For those of you that like 3D modeling here is Sandy @LordTrilobite https://skfb.ly/B8q7 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted September 25, 2016 Author Share Posted September 25, 2016 Carr's new upcoming book describes the following foot ungual has Ornithischian and not Thescelosaurus . It may actually be Pachycephalosaurid. It's morphology is different than Thescelosaurus claws and not much else in the Hell Creek it could fit. Pretty detailed description. Sorry for poor photos 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 7, 2016 Author Share Posted October 7, 2016 Replica photo of Dakotaraptor killing claw 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMiau Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 Thank you for putting this together! Really really helpful and - wow! - what a collection! I was looking to get my hands on an Edmontosaur ungual, your post is much appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyBoy Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 Thank you for putting this together it's awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 Fascinating, beautiful and rather exciting. All these threads are a valuable resource. Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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