Reputable Fossil Shows and Venues

[DPS Ammonite]

For the benefit of all our readers, can anyone recommend or comment on fossil shows and venues that have the best reputations for their dealers accurately and honestly described fossils for sale? Are there shows that hold their dealers to high standards of honesty and ask for questionable items to be redescribed or taken off the table for sale? I find that some fossils have the wrong names, are phony but are being sold as real and have restoration/recreation that is not disclosed. Especially problematic are Moroccan and Chinese vertebrates. Hopefully fossil shows and venues will have better ethics than some on-line sellers because the customer can look at the fossil in person and not have to rely on poor quality photos from the seller.

 

Can anyone comment of the reputation of the organizers and dealers at the Denver show? Please don’t mention specific dealers. Are there other shows to recommend or not recommend?

 

I can recommend the Fossil Mania show in Glen Rose Texas that I visited twice about five years ago. There were a lot of local Texas and Oklahoma fossils for sale with good locality info that were not heavily restored. Many were sold by the actual amateur collectors. One dealer of Moroccan fossils was very forthcoming to point out what restoration work had been done. For example he said that only the teeth were real in the Mosasaur jaws.

 

[HamptonsDoc]

I've noticed that the majority of dealers inside the main buildings at large shows (Tucson, Denver, NY/NJ) seem to have real and properly labeled fossils. As you make your way outside to the tents the questionability of the fossils seem to increase. Of course this is anecdotel and I'm sure others can give you more info about specific show organizers. 

[JohnBrewer]

What would be good is some sort of self regulating body set up by sellers. They could be vetted by each other and have a code of conduct where there are explicit with description accuracy with regards to authenticity, provenance and restoration for example with a guarantee of a refund/compensation if things aren't as they should be. Just a thought. 

[Kane]

Love that idea, @JohnBrewer - A kind of gold standard certification process. "Certified Authentic Fossil Seller" with some kind of seal and ID/member number, perhaps? 

[bcfossilcollector]

5 hours ago, JohnBrewer said:

What would be good is some sort of self regulating body set up by sellers. They could be vetted by each other and have a code of conduct where there are explicit with description accuracy with regards to authenticity, provenance and restoration for example with a guarantee of a refund/compensation if things aren't as they should be. Just a thought. 

I agree John.  Something similar to the International Antiquarian Booksellers Association where members have to adhere to certain standards in order to obtain/maintain membership!

[Susan from PA]

15 hours ago, JohnBrewer said:

What would be good is some sort of self regulating body set up by sellers. They could be vetted by each other and have a code of conduct where there are explicit with description accuracy with regards to authenticity, provenance and restoration for example with a guarantee of a refund/compensation if things aren't as they should be. Just a thought. 

This would be a great idea, John.  I only collect dinosaurian material, so my interactions with dealers is not as broad as some.  However, I have found that there are mistakes in identification, even with dealers who have great reputations.  It can be very difficult to identify isolated bones and teeth, and paleontologists are reluctant to put their names and identifications on certain specimens.  I have been burned many times, and I've learned that the best way to combat the issue is to become as educated as you can about what you are collecting.  Dealers are just not as knowledgable about what they are selling as they should be.  They simply don't take the time to learn, as it's not an easy process.   I have also found that once a dealer places an ID on a specimen, they are very reluctant to change it to another species unless told by a paleontologist, which is next to impossible.  We are fortunate that we have found this forum to help us with proper identifications.  I wish I had found it sooner!     

[Troodon]

Great idea but it's like putting the Fox in the hen house to have them vet themselves.   I don't trust most dealers ID on dinos even though they are reputable and honest.  I don't see most of them trying to educate themselves.  I've told several about this forum and they have no interest.  Happy where they are.  I totally agree with Susan self education is the best tool.

[Ridgehiker]

3 hours ago, Troodon said:

Great idea but it's like putting the Fox in the hen house to have them vet themselves.   I don't trust most dealers ID on dinos even though they are reputable and honest.  I don't see most of them trying to educate themselves.  I've told several about this forum and they have no interest.  Happy where they are.  I totally agree with Susan self education is the best tool.

 

 

Its amazing  that many fossils are identified to species when the world's foremost experts at the Tyrell Museum would label something as 'small theropod tooth...possible dromaeosaur'  At the Geological Survey we'd have someone bring in their trilobite...3 world experts in a huddle might agree to the  family...a long shot at the genus.

 

90% of dino specimens are mislabeled. 98% of all fossils sold by dealers are scientifically USELESS because they have inadequate provenance and collecting info.  'Madagascar' is not a collecting location.  A trilobite from China?...hint, China is bigger than the USA...would a serious collector buy a random trilobite 'from the USA'?

 

Fossil shows have their place... for buying fossil ornaments. 

 

re some  type of oversight.  For what?  Customers are willing purchasers of these ornaments and will continue to buy them.  Some people buy ceramic cats...my mother collected thimbles.

 

The collector interested in science will do his or her research. Those who buy the fossils as ornaments are so far removed from scientific methodology that it doesnt matter if what they buy is legitimate or not.  Either way It is just an ornament because it loses all legitimacy when removed from fully documented geologic context.  'Is this a Saurnitholestes tooth as labeled? ' Only legitimate answer 'nobody knows'.

 

Collecting stuff is fun. I've had the collecting fever since I was pre school. There's nothing wrong with collecting stamps, cards or bottle caps. These fossil shows are on the same level as train shows, jewellery fairs, etc. They are what they are. The last thing they need is some aura of false legitimacy.

 

 

[tmaier]

Having a guild style, self regulating union of dealers can work. @bcfossilcollector mentioned the International Antiquarian Booksellers Association, and I'll mention "VCOINS", a marketplace for coin dealers. If a dealer is found to have broken a ethics rule, they are either suspended for a time period, or permanently thrown out.

The necessary elements to make it a success are:

- incentive to join (through improved sales and ability to demand higher prices)

- incentive to report against other dealers (a cheating dealer steals from an honest dealers sales)

- dealer's belief that it will be a fair and honest process of evaluation and punishment


If the dealers are a member of this guild, they will scrutinize each other carefully, to avoid having their competitor use cheating tactics that could steal their custors away, and also to protect the value of the name of the guild. There have to be proper checks and balances, to provide incentives for the fox to guard the chickens.
 

[FossilDudeCO]

Just an FYI.

Tucson, Denver and the NY/NJ shows are all set up by the same promoters. Eons Expos

[Wrangellian]

If the dealers would be more diligent about including locality/stratigraphy info for each fossil, it doesn't matter what the name or type of fossil it is. I'm glad I'm not a bone collector. I'll be happy if I can acquire a good Ediacaran anything as long as the location is definite even if not quite exact to the square meter (and there aren't too many Ediacaran locations other than Russia's White Sea area where you can find one from), but in general you want to be as accurate as possible about the location and layer (from which you have a better chance of figuring out the ID later - the location comes first), but unfortunately most sellers are lax about this most important bit of data as far as science is concerned. If they were more diligent, I can imagine a bought fossil still having a small chance of contributing to science if someone recognizes something about it in the future, even after sitting for decades in some collector's drawer or passing from hand to hand. If the location data is sufficient and kept with the fossil, does it matter who collected it and who owns it now? When I pop off, do all my self-collected fossils suddenly lose their usefulness to science even if I have left accurate collecting data with them (on labels, say)?

[Ridgehiker]

13 hours ago, Wrangellian said:

If the dealers would be more diligent about including locality/stratigraphy info for each fossil, it doesn't matter what the name or type of fossil it is. I'm glad I'm not a bone collector. I'll be happy if I can acquire a good Ediacaran anything as long as the location is definite even if not quite exact to the square meter (and there aren't too many Ediacaran locations other than Russia's White Sea area where you can find one from), but in general you want to be as accurate as possible about the location and layer (from which you have a better chance of figuring out the ID later - the location comes first), but unfortunately most sellers are lax about this most important bit of data as far as science is concerned. If they were more diligent, I can imagine a bought fossil still having a small chance of contributing to science if someone recognizes something about it in the future, even after sitting for decades in some collector's drawer or passing from hand to hand. If the location data is sufficient and kept with the fossil, does it matter who collected it and who owns it now? When I pop off, do all my self-collected fossils suddenly lose their usefulness to science even if I have left accurate collecting data with them (on labels, say)?

 

Yes, the  info very much matters as to who collected a specimen.  At the Geological Survey all provenance is diligently recorded.  We never used a specimen that couldnt be put into archives without the source.

 

People outside of science confuse two concepts.   There is popular science ( this site, Scientific American, some museum publications, a lecture, etc.). Then there is published science that is accepted within a particular discipline.  In the latter every variable must be verifiable.  

 

'Specimen 1234 is from the St.Petersbourg institute of....'  Why do we use it? It has documentation of being collected by field  trip on a certain date by geology class from the University of Leningrad.  The trip has credibility. The location has credibility.  The important thing is that we at the Geological Survey 'accept' the info  as having verifiable provenance.

 

Why? Because the paper published by the Geological Survey will be acceped as legitimate science ...and the chain continues.  Science is all about 'peer reviewed' acceptance.  The body of knowledge builds by adherence to scientific methodology.

[sseth]

Interesting discussion.  I find myself fitting on both sides.  I am first a collector, second an educator, and third a retailer.  Can the term both be used when dealing with thirds?  I think this is “New Math”.

 

Please humor me as a share a few completely and absolutely biased perspectives that may, or may not, be of interest to anyone but myself and perhaps my mother (she always feigns interest in my stories).

 

First is my perspective as a collector in this tumultuous arena of antiquated flora and fauna.  All pieces in my collection are labeled.  My collection is a hybrid of self-collected and purchased pieces from around the world.  Some of the labels are complete right down to the GPS coordinates where the fossils were found, and the depth in the formation from given markers.  (I have mapped my entire fish quarry from the top of the formation to bottom, based on constant layer-markers that are consistent throughout the quarry)  Most fossils from my own quarry even include the orientation of the specimen (North, South, North-northeast, etc…), as well as settlement position (dorasal, ventral, left side, etc…).  I have elaborate records of every uncommon or rare specimen I have found over the years.  My binder is huge.  Yes, I know this paragraph is technically several muddled paragraphs twisted into one and I apologize.

 

My points with everything in the last paragraph(s) is(are) that many of us who collect have OCD in one form or another and it shows in our personal collection and labels.  No offense.  I just happen to be a data junkie like many of you.  I love numbers and information and translate that to my personal collection.  Second point, just in case you are keeping track.  I also recognize that most collectors are a bit more normal/sane than me and their fully functioning brains do not necessitate this same level of absurdity as my partially functioning one.  They just want a nice display piece with a bit of information about where it came from.

 

This all leads me to my next perspective, that of retailer.  Most of the people I sell my fossils, fish especially, to do not care that their Heliobatis radians was found dorsal side up, facing north-northeast, 26 7/8” down from the Tri-Ash layer on July 1st, 2016 by Seth Sorensen at 12:24 pm at location 41°51'51.13"N & 110°40'30.76"W and was prepared by Seth Sorensen in August of 2016 using a (brand name undisclosed) airscribe tool.  They just want a fantastic example of a stingray from the world famous Green River Formation, and lets be honest, who doesn’t.  Is there a need to provide this information with every fossil I find and sell?  In a statement uttered by Edward Drinker cope in a matter completely unrelated to this subject, “No.”

 

I don’t believe this makes me an unscrupulous seller.  There is no intent to deceive on my part. Just the opposite, as an educator I would love everyone to learn everything they can about their fossils.  I sometimes lament the fact that there are those who often attempt to vilify anyone who sells fossils.  It would be much easier to vilify me for a myriad of other transgressions.

 

Let me share a parable that may help illustrate the life of a typical collector.

 

There once was a man who felt the need to adorn his dwelling.  He went to the market and found a beautiful representation of a sunset clad in a gilded frame.  The man purchased the work and hung it from the wall of his residence.  And lo, the man was happy.

 

Let me explain the parable in lay terms.   I have a few paintings on my walls and have no idea who painted them, nor do I care.  I don’t know who framed them, where they were re-printed (it is possible they are just prints???), or even what country they were shipped from.  I like them and they look good on my walls.  I am sure a serious art collector would be appalled by my lack of awareness when it comes to the embellishments adorning my walls.  The same is true of fossil collecting.  I do not believe that it is wrong or right to desire as much information as one can on a given fossil.  I also do not see the harm in not wanting this same information.  

 

I network with dealers all over the world.  I also network with academics in the field.  I don’t believe there are any more dealers trying to deceive people than there are academics.  Yes, this does mean that I do believe that there are both dealers and scientist who do things for either money or fame, and not for the good of others. In both cases, I believe that these are the exception and not the rule.

 

The majority of those who purchase fossils from me do not want all of the information I can provide on their acquisitions.  They just want generalities because that is enough to help them enjoy their fossil.  Enjoyment is the key.  When was the last time you enjoyed a properly labeled specimen in a licked drawer in an off-limits section of your local museum?  As with most dealers, when I do have someone who would like additional information on their fossils, I provide it where possible.  To be honest, not every fossil has all of the information I would like, but it also makes them more affordable to the purchaser. 

 

In summation, lets allow each other to collect what, and how we want to collect and not look down our collective noses at others just because they do not do things the way we think they should be done.  Please remember, we are all someone else’s weirdo!

 

I apologize for being so verbose in this post.  I was just in one of those moods.

 

Seth

[Wrangellian]

7 hours ago, Canadawest said:

 

Yes, the  info very much matters as to who collected a specimen. 

...

'Specimen 1234 is from the St.Petersbourg institute of....'  Why do we use it? It has documentation of being collected by field  trip on a certain date by geology class from the University of Leningrad.  The trip has credibility. The location has credibility.  The important thing is that we at the Geological Survey 'accept' the info  as having verifiable provenance.

...

So, do I count as a credible collector of scientifically useful specimens or not? I am not a scientist, I'm just a lone amateur collector, not affiliated with any school or museum and no longer affiliated with any of the local Paleo societies. But the RBCM nonetheless is very willing to accept specimens I donate to them - of course with as much data as I can provide with each one. But for all they know, I could be lying or playing fast and loose about this data. I don't know if I could prove where I collected any of it except those few that I had the wherewithal to take a pic of in situ.. And even if I could prove everything at their request, if I were to donate a bunch of stuff and then died the following day, then I certainly could not prove any of it. Does the stuff I donated to them become scientifically useless then? Do they go in the dumpster? Am I wasting my time collecting?

Now if on the other hand any of my specimens that I have collected and left labels with are useful to science even after I'm dead, and all the scientists have to go on (and trust) is the label w/location data that I have included with each specimen, then how is it any different for any specimen that I have in my collection that I have acquired from other people, even people that are no longer alive or I don't know the name of? I have both local specimens that were passed on to me by collectors who are now dead, and specimens from elsewhere collected by people some of whom I don't know the name of but they do include quite precise locality data. Why should I doubt this info any more than the museum doubts my info when I provide it to them when I donate a specimen? Should I throw away all these labels from the specimens I didn't collect myself, and just sell them as knickknacks?

[Ridgehiker]

Science isnt about fairness.  Its about verifiable evidence that is used in accepted scientific methodology.

 

Anyone can do as they wish with their own specimens.  Document provenance or not.  Donate specimens or not.  Who says you cant collect fossils or stamps or hockey cards or 'whatever'?

 

I have no idea if a museum wants particular specimens or not.  I'm sure that some museums welcome them and put them on display and others cull donations...keeping some for a variety of reasons ...and others go into the dumpster.

 

Few museums are involved in publishing papers in paleontology...except for the odd one every few years. The RBCM doesnt have a large paleo collection...only about 60 thousand specimens. I doubt if 1% have ever been used in any published research.  The Geological Survey in BC is going to overwhelming use field collected specimens...specimens being precisely documented.  When you see a site  number in a GSC  publication there is a physical file that can be looked up that gives collecting details.

 

I'm not sure what the issue is today.  'Here's the GPS info'.  We  used to have to spend time recording precise locations with a topo map and compass and then double check and repeat.    Today it is 'click'.

 

 

[Nimravis]

My answer to this question takes just 5 words- "Buyer Beware and Self Educate"-This is the only thing that works for me, since the seller may actually believe that they are selling specimen  "A", when it is actually specimen "Z". If the item is nice and I want it at the price that the person is selling it at, I will purchase it or trade for it and be happy with my decision. This also works both ways; how many people have bought a specimen that was Misidentified for a cheaper price, but did not advised the dealer that it was wrong and walked away with a great deal?

 

As far as shows, I do like the M.A.P..S. (Mid America Paleontological Society) show that is held every year in Iowa, City, I believe in April. The amount of vendors and variety has gone down over the years, but it is still a nice show.