pijlmans Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 Hello, I found these bones in the back of a cave in Macedonia this summer. I first noticed the big bone in the first picture, and after removing some stones I found the rest of the bones that you see lying in the back of the first picture. I do not know anything about fossils, so I am wondering what the opinion of the experts on this forum is. At the moment, I already got two expert opinions, but both are saying something completely different! I will let you know what they said later, in order not to bias you... Hopefully you can help me solve this...Thanks in advance! Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 Hi Dennis! Do you remember where in Macedonia this cave was located? It will help people on TFF to narrow down possibilities for the identification of the bones you found. Here are a couple of maps of Macedonia - the coloured one shows the geologic formations: Image from https://www.researchgate.net/figure/230631574_fig1_Fig-1-Map-of-the-Republic-of-Macedonia-color-figure-available-online Image from https://www.researchgate.net/figure/230631574_fig2_Fig-2-Lithological-map-of-Macedonia-according-to-Geological-map-of-SFR-Yugoslavia Also, the size of the bones will be helpful for identification purposes. Good luck! Monica 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pijlmans Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 Hi Monica, They were found in the region labeled "WMZ" in your lowest map. In the first map this would be between Ohrid and Kicevo. Is that sufficient? I prefer not to disclose the exact location, because in case the bones are very old or special I would like them to be picked up by e.g. a Natural History Museum. Unfortunately, I cannot say a lot about the size, as I left them in the cave. The big bone in the pictures had (I estimate) the size of my lower arm+fist, it was pretty big. Maybe in combination with the vertebrates somebody can say something smart :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifbrindacier Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 HI pijlams, can you tell us their size ? And also, could you take each of them in photo from all sides : under, above. It would help, thank you. "On ne voit bien que par le coeur, l'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." (Antoine de Saint-Exupéry) "We only well see with the heart, the essential is invisible for the eyes." In memory of Doren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pijlmans Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 We posted simultaneously...See my previous post...Maybe 30-40 cm...I know, I am completely useless :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifbrindacier Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 I was editing my post when you answered, i add a question : could you take each of them in photo from all the sides, under, above,... ? "On ne voit bien que par le coeur, l'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." (Antoine de Saint-Exupéry) "We only well see with the heart, the essential is invisible for the eyes." In memory of Doren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pijlmans Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 I cannot take more pictures, since I left the bones in the cave and I am in the Netherlands now and the cave is in Macedonia :-) When I found the bones, I found them interesting but did not realize they could have been old...Maybe they are not old, I am not sure what the hair/veins/muscle?? like structures are on the big bone and if you would expect that on old bones... This is all I got...Just hoping for some educated guesses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 I'm seeing a number of things. The large limb bone seems to be a femur (left side?). The small limb bone looks to be a metacarpal. There are three cervical vertebrae. There's a sacrum. And there appears to be an unidentified bone on the far right (skull parts?) The cervical vertebrae look very much like those of a deer to me. The large femur is really huge and fat though. I would hazard a guess and say it might be Megaloceros giganteus (Irish Elk). 1 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 That femur might be equine. 2 The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 You might be right. 1 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calhounensis Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 My votes in for equine. It hard to tell exactly because of the angle of the photo. However the metacarpal's distal end looks like that of an equine. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 For comparison: 2 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pijlmans Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 Thanks everybody for your suggestions! One of the experts I have had contact with about the bones also thinks they are from a horse. The other expert thought the bones belonged to the extinct Cave Bear. So I guess the Cave Bear theory is out? Too bad, would have been cooler than horse :-) Does the yellow/brown color of the bones say something about their age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted September 27, 2016 Share Posted September 27, 2016 Drawings from Atlas of Animal Bones. For Prehistorians, Archaeologists and Quaternary Geologists - Elisabeth Schmid; Elsevier, New York, 1972. 5 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pijlmans Posted September 27, 2016 Author Share Posted September 27, 2016 abyssunder, do you also suggest this is from a horse? Can anybody speculate on the age of the bones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted September 27, 2016 Share Posted September 27, 2016 More views are needed for a correct determination, also the femur is damaged. Equine will be my guess. The prominent Trochanter tertius (third Trochanter) which is characteristic to equids, is also broken. I think the age couldn't be older than Pleistocene. 2 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pijlmans Posted September 28, 2016 Author Share Posted September 28, 2016 Pleistocene would mean that they are about 11,000 years old? According to the expert of the Museum of Natural History (who also thought the bones are from a horse), the bones are from a recently diseased horse, because cave fossils are supposed to be dark yellow/brown. To me the bones look like they are dark yellow and brown, but maybe she means they have to be darker, I am not sure... What do you think about the theory that they are rather fresh than fossil? Do you know what the "hairy" part on the bone is? Hair, veins, or...? Would that something that can help guessing the age? In another cave a couple of meters away there were also some bones, smaller and white...Those looked like fresh to me, but the big ones I looked a lot older and not (very) recent. I added a picture as example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 The color depends on the mineral content of the precipitated /carrying water in contact with the bones and how long the bones are exposed to the weathering. The darker bones could be older than the lighter colored ones, but is not a condition in determining the geological age. The bones of the second cave looks to be more recent than those of the first cave. 1 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Just as a humorous footnote here, when the first Neanderthal bones were discovered they were dismissed as just the bones of a Napoleonic soldier who had the rickets. And now back to the real conversation... already in progress... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifbrindacier Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 They couldn't imagine that other human beings have existed, their education told them that we were the only creatures of that kind. But they had imagination, rickets because you must have imagination to conclude the bones found were the ones of a soldier who had the rickets. I must had that Napoleon wasn't very loved. "On ne voit bien que par le coeur, l'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." (Antoine de Saint-Exupéry) "We only well see with the heart, the essential is invisible for the eyes." In memory of Doren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pijlmans Posted September 29, 2016 Author Share Posted September 29, 2016 Well you Fossil People have a particular kind of humor :-) So I understand nobody wants to burn their fingers on an estimate on the age, or what the "hairy" structure on the bone is? What would the Funny Fossil People suggest to do with these bones? I left them in the cave where I found them and contacted both Mavrovo National Park and the Natural History Museum is Skopje. The Natural History Museum was very helpful and says they are from a recently diseased horse and they are not further interested. I have not heard back from the Mavrovo National Park people. I could still try to see if some friends in Macedonia would enjoy a visit to this nice cave to pick them up...But if it's not worth the effort that's what it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 Well if the bones are recent. That hairy structure is likely just the remaining hair of the animal. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 I'll throw in some cave taphonomy diedrichspeleothgermaneuropetaphoforiginal_vol63-no1-a05.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pijlmans Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 Resident weevel :-), is there something of particular interest in the article that you posted or something that I should not miss? It''s tough for me as a layman to make the right interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pijlmans Posted October 2, 2016 Author Share Posted October 2, 2016 Since the Natural History Museum in Skopje is not interested, and the people here on the forum confirmed that the bones are likely from a horse and not (as I initially hoped) from a Cave Bear, this adventure stops here for me :-) In case you want to know, I found these bones in a cave very close to the Alilica Cave near Tresonce in Mavrovo National Park, Macedonia: http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/p/m/2527b8/ Thank you all for your help! Your feedback was really helpful (and funny :-) , and highly appreciated. Cheers, Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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