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HFVC Fossils

ID help on ?mammal? Teeth?

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HFVC Fossils

Hey all, here are four different examples of what I believe to be teeth from the same species. To me they appear to be herbivore grinding teeth or omnivore molars.  Any ideas?

thanks!!

 

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HFVC Fossils

So the last 5 photos I just snuck in since the dermal one was included in the photo with the last 'mammal' tooth. 

Is it a dermal ?? Of a shark or ray??

and any help on id of the Ray or sawfish oral tooth on the last three??

AND is the pavement/grinding tooth(the round one with concave bottom) the same as....the fish that has mostly oval/bean shaped grinding  teeth or does anyone know of a species that ONLY has circular pavement/grinding teeth. In this micro material we found 7-10 circular teeth, but no oval ones like we've found before in the North Sulphur gravel. 

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HFVC Fossils

Oh I apologize guys for not editing/cropping these before uploading them!!!  I screen shot them so they are much smaller for uploading, but see I did not crop them on most, like I should have.  I will need to come back and crop them and reload them if it's not too complicated.  But I'm off to bed for tonight!

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Harry Pristis

The mammal teeth appear to be Sigmodon sp., a rat.

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MarcoSr
9 hours ago, HFVC Fossils said:

So the last 5 photos I just snuck in since the dermal one was included in the photo with the last 'mammal' tooth. 

Is it a dermal ?? Of a shark or ray??

and any help on id of the Ray or sawfish oral tooth on the last three??

AND is the pavement/grinding tooth(the round one with concave bottom) the same as....the fish that has mostly oval/bean shaped grinding  teeth or does anyone know of a species that ONLY has circular pavement/grinding teeth. In this micro material we found 7-10 circular teeth, but no oval ones like we've found before in the North Sulphur gravel. 

 

 

It is a ray dermal denticle.  The tooth is a Dasyatis sp.

The fish tooth is from a pycnodont dentition like Anomoeodus which has both oval and circular teeth.

 

Marco Sr.

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HFVC Fossils

Thanks so much guys!

 

the Dasyatis tooth though isn't like any that a  "dasyatis" search brings up.  The root and nutrient groove are very similar, but the crown is unlike any I am familiar with or find 'googling'. 

 

"The fish tooth is from a pycnodont dentition like Anomoeodus which has both oval and circular teeth."

Right, it was just peculiar to me that we found such quantity of circular ones and not a single oval one.  I was curious if anyone had heard of a species that had only circular dentations/dentitions. 

 

Again, I appreciate the help! My boys wanted me to have all the answers, and these were a few that had me scratching my head. 

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Al Dente

The Ray tooth looks like Texabatis corrugata.

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MarcoSr
11 hours ago, HFVC Fossils said:

Thanks so much guys!

 

the Dasyatis tooth though isn't like any that a  "dasyatis" search brings up.  The root and nutrient groove are very similar, but the crown is unlike any I am familiar with or find 'googling'. 

 

"The fish tooth is from a pycnodont dentition like Anomoeodus which has both oval and circular teeth."

Right, it was just peculiar to me that we found such quantity of circular ones and not a single oval one.  I was curious if anyone had heard of a species that had only circular dentations/dentitions. 

 

Again, I appreciate the help! My boys wanted me to have all the answers, and these were a few that had me scratching my head. 

 

Welton and Farish 1993 "The Collector's Guide to Fossil Sharks and Rays from the Cretaceous of Texas" shows a male ray tooth identical to yours and calls it a Dasyatis spp.  However the book is over twenty years old and a few species have been renamed in that time period by other authors like Cappetta, Case, Siverson etc.  However I always use it as a starting point for an id.

 

Marco Sr.

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MarcoSr
7 hours ago, Al Dente said:

The Ray tooth looks like Texabatis corrugata.

 

Eric

 

Case and Cappetta 1997 did rename the Dasyatis spp. of Welton and Farish 1993 to Texabatis corrugata.  But truthfully I didn't see adequate justification for the genus change.  They renamed several of the Texas ray teeth, IMHO, without much justification.  To some authors almost every minor tooth feature change merits a new species or new genus and species.  The genus/species of extant rays and skates isn't even based upon tooth features but is based upon physical features like size, shape, color, color patterns etc. The more modern ray and skate jaws that I see and own, the more variation I see in tooth features within a genus/species and the more similarity of tooth features among different genera/species.  To understand the fossil tooth features properly you really need to understand the tooth features of extant rays and skates which are very poorly understood and described.  Authors shouldn't even be naming fossil ray and skate genera/species based upon isolated teeth alone without a basic understanding of extant tooth features.  The more extant jaws I see, the more disappointed I am in a number of the fossil researchers.

 

Marco Sr.

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HFVC Fossils

Marco,

i appreciate the explanation.  That makes a lot of sense to me!!

 

that is cool to own extant ray, etc jaws, w/teeth.  

 

I wonder if my boys would be interested in that.  

Are they very expensive? From your experience?

 

thanks again!

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MarcoSr
4 minutes ago, HFVC Fossils said:

Marco,

i appreciate the explanation.  That makes a lot of sense to me!!

 

that is cool to own extant ray, etc jaws, w/teeth.  

 

I wonder if my boys would be interested in that.  

Are they very expensive? From your experience?

 

thanks again!

 

Prices of shark jaws can vary widely depending on the species, size, and quality.  Rarer species can be very expensive with some species costing thousands of of dollars.  Larger and better quality jaws cost more.  However, you can buy some reasonably priced shark jaws on e-bay.  However, I've found a good number are misidentified especially by sellers who are only selling one or two.  Even some of the sellers who sell a large number of jaws misidentify them.  They like to use species common names like great white, or bull, or lemon that people recognize.  With sharks there are a number of publications on extant shark species that do show the teeth as line drawings or an actual removed dentition that can help you to id a jaw.  But sharks like rays and skates are scientifically named based upon physical features like size, body and fin shape, color and color patterns, number of gills etc. and not on teeth.  So teeth are pretty much an afterthought in these publications.

 

Ray and skate jaws are not sold nearly as much because people aren't as interested in them as shark jaws.  The prices for them are much more reasonable but also go up based upon rarity, size, and quality.  Most cost between $20 and $50 on e-bay but some can cost several hundred dollars or more.  However, ray and skate jaws are mostly very small.  Most are only a couple of inches.  A lot of shark species can have small jaws this size but a good number have much larger jaws with some species several feet in size or larger.  There aren't the same number of publications on extant rays and skates showing the teeth like with sharks.  Plus ray and skate teeth can look extremely similar.  If you buy a ray jaw and want to verify the id given by the seller it is best to buy ones that come with tails which can help you to better verify the id through the tail features.  Again rays and skates are not scientifically named based upon teeth.  If you really want to verify an id you need to buy complete taxidermied rays and skates which are also sold on e-bay and for not much more than the individual jaws in some cases.  But make sure the specimen has the jaw still in it and some may have a smell.  As a matter of fact any of the jaws that you buy if not properly prepared can smell.

 

Marco Sr.

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