Small but interesting

[Shellseeker]

Not a lot of Time ..  Out with my friend and and fossil enthusiast JLAR706 checking on a favored spot.  Going out today also to a different location.  Jlar started slow but caught up fast with some excellent Horse, Camel, Tigers and Makos.

 

I has a similar set of Tigers, Horse, fewer Makos, but a couple that require ID,

 

 

I think I know what these are, but size matters

 

All in all, some great memories with a good friend in one of my favorite spots.  Shellseeker

[Shellseeker]

Another photo of one of Jlar's pristine Makos

Enjoy

[fifbrindacier]

I cannot help you on this, but i find you made very nice finds.

[Fruitbat]

The carnassial (2nd/3rd picture) looks very felid to me!  Any idea of the possible age?  Miocene, perhaps?

 

The equid lower cheek tooth (6th/7th picture) appears to be one of the hipparionines...possibly Nannippus sp. simply based on size.

 

-Joe

 

 

[Grimlock]

Nice haul Jack

[Ludwigia]

Nice finds! Sorry I can't help wth id.

[Shellseeker]

Thanks for all the kind replies and encouragement. Days spent fossil hunting are days of bliss, and then to discover these magical finds equals pure heaven. Sorry for the cryptic initial posts.  I was heading out again today at 5:30 am. Let me provide some additional details for those trying to help me ID these.

1) On the likely Hipparionine lower photos 6&7 M3 (?), it is 22mm long, 19mm occlusal, 9mm wide. Many say that the Peace River formation is a mixture of late Miocene and Pleistocene.  From my experience the  majority of the formation is heavily Pleistocene.  This location is at least 40% Miocene, making it an unusual hunting environment. 

2) On  the likely Equus lower photos 8&9 M3, it is 33mm long, 32mm occlusal, 15mm wide

3) The broken Canine (photos 4&5) is 35mm long, oval is 21x11mm.  I find the horizontal banding on the enamel to be curious.

4) Photos 2&3 Jaw is 9x27x46 mm The Carnassial is 11.64 mm long, 2.89mm wide.  Joe, I also think it is felid but so small.  What small felids lived 2-3 myas?  As indicated above.  Miocene -Pleistocene mix with LOTS of miocene materials coming from this location.

 

Finally, I went out today with a different set of hunting friends to a different location NOT known for its Miocene content, and finds were few and far between for all of us. It is hard to be running hot with so few trips out this season, but I am partial to small horses in general and to upper molars in particular  -- I will identify this one .. I have seen it before..  What a great Weekend  !!!

[sixgill pete]

Amazing!!!

[ynot]

Nice finds!!

Tony

[Ludwigia]

15 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Thanks for all the kind replies and encouragement. Days spent fossil hunting are days of bliss, and then to discover these magical finds equals pure heaven. Sorry for the cryptic initial posts.  I was heading out again today at 5:30 am. Let me provide some additional details for those trying to help me ID these.

1) On the likely Hipparionine lower photos 6&7 M3 (?), it is 22mm long, 19mm occlusal, 9mm wide. Many say that the Peace River formation is a mixture of late Miocene and Pleistocene.  From my experience the  majority of the formation is heavily Pleistocene.  This location is at least 40% Miocene, making it an unusual hunting environment. 

2) On  the likely Equus lower photos 8&9 M3, it is 33mm long, 32mm occlusal, 15mm wide

3) The broken Canine (photos 4&5) is 35mm long, oval is 21x11mm.  I find the horizontal banding on the enamel to be curious.

4) Photos 2&3 Jaw is 9x27x46 mm The Carnassial is 11.64 mm long, 2.89mm wide.  Joe, I also think it is felid but so small.  What small felids lived 2-3 myas?  As indicated above.  Miocene -Pleistocene mix with LOTS of miocene materials coming from this location.

 

Finally, I went out today with a different set of hunting friends to a different location NOT known for its Miocene content, and finds were few and far between for all of us. It is hard to be running hot with so few trips out this season, but I am partial to small horses in general and to upper molars in particular  -- I will identify this one .. I have seen it before..  What a great Weekend  !!!

 

Now that one is a work of art!

[Shellseeker]

Thanks Roger,  I really like the "squigglies" but the overall details are amazing. 

I am in an exciting period here -- on the trail of a Hipparionine ID!!!

 

So I went back , browsed Bruce McFadden's paper,  searched the net AND TFF,  finding this...

Then , picking up a sidebyside from Chris (Plantguy) tooth. they look pretty similar but not exact

 

I am thinking, but not sure Cormohipparion,  but still looking for Chris, Harry or other to comment !!!

 

Also , more info on the Canine..  I can see a little horizontal banding and the "hollow cone"  view of this broken Jaguar Canine.  However my broken Canine does not seem robust enough to be Jaguar.

 

[Harry Pristis]

I'd guess that this last tooth is Cormohipparion Cf. C. plicatile which is also a Late Miocene species.

[jpc]

That is a beautiful little felid jaw.  Wow. 

[Shellseeker]

Thanks JPC and Harry. You know that I have the greatest respect  for TFF as the best Website bar none for fossil enthuiasts.  Let me do an advertisement.  I am trying to identify diverse fossil finds and it is hard for an amateur like me, but TFF has experts REAL experts who have an immense depth of knowledge and experience. So one of my practices is to search for older threads on TFF.  I found one where Harry Identified a Horse tooth similar to mine and now here s another where 3-4 experts including Harry,  debate the identification of a felid carnassial by size. Well Worth the read..

Now back to my Carnassial (an m1 right side jaw) that I just measured 3 or 4 times, 5.9mm width and 11.1 mm length.. - a smaller cat and I have no doubt that we will get a pretty good prediction on which cat had this carnassial!!

[Vieira]

Very nice finds

[jcbshark]

Awesome finds Jack, much better than Chris and I did this weekend

[Shellseeker]

Thanks Vieira and Jeff,

I am scrapping the bottom of a honey hole, trying desperately to avoid going out and prospecting for new locations. It is like Linus' blanket -- I need the security and I need to build up all those kayaking and digging muscles that have atrophied over the off season!.

 

Here is another thread with Harry, Nate, Rich,  pretty well nailing the identity of the carnassial with jaw.

 

[Plantguy]

Hey Jack, good to see you are able to get out and are bringing home some cool finds--not bad for early in the season!! LOL!  Certainly go with Harry's thoughts/ID on the horse--he's one of our goto guys with the ref material to match. Sadly, my scatter brain had actually forgotten about my similar find. 

 

Continued hunting success! Regards, Chris 

[Shellseeker]

On 11/7/2016 at 11:42 AM, Harry Pristis said:

I'd guess that this last tooth is Cormohipparion Cf. C. plicatile which is also a Late Miocene species.

Thanks Harry, seems that Richard Hulbert agrees with you..  I wanted a crisp ID for the small lower molar in photos 6 & 7;

Quote

Hi Jack,

 

Great finds!  The upper tooth is a left premolar and an identification of Cormohipparion plicatile appears to be correct. There is a second, smaller species of Cormohipparion in the same deposits, Cormohipparion ingenuum.  So to be as certain as one can be identifying isolated horse teeth, I would need to measure the length and width of the tooth and then factor in its relative state of wear (as the occlusal surface gets smaller as the teeth wear down).

 

The other tooth is a lower left third molar of Nannippus peninsulatus.  In the older scientific literature this species was called Nannippus phlegon.  It was the last 3-toed horse to survive in North America. The smallest species of Nannippus (Nannippus morgani) is estimated to have weighed about 40 kg.  In terms of mass, Nannippus peninsulatus is actually twice as big, with an estimated mass of 80 kg.

 

Richard

Harry, do you have photo snd/or pictures of Cormohipparion plicatile?

[Harry Pristis]

No, Jack, I don't seem to have an image of C. plicatile.  I do have an image of C. ingenuum.

 

 

[Harry Pristis]

Here, Jack, is a Cormohipparion plicatile.  I just found the tooth in the TBI ( To Be Identified ) box at my feet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Harry Pristis]

Oh my!  I found another in the TBi box . . . this one is a p3.  I'm searching now for the p4.

 

 

 

 

[Shellseeker]

4 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

Oh my!  I found another in the TBi box . . . this one is a p3.  I'm searching now for the p4.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Harry.  Your photos and identifications are excellent .  They help me improve my identification skills. I just matched another N. Peninsulatus using your photo... These can get very long,

[Harry Pristis]

 

You're welcome, Jack.  If you find my posts informative, please click on the "informative" button. 

    The occlusal surface of horse teeth is crucial to most identifications, certainly with these small, late Miocene/Pliocene horses.  Please show us that surface of your N. peninsulatus tooth; it may help me as I sort through my accumulation.

 

[Harry Pristis]

The dimensions of the horse teeth presented here are basic criteria for identification.  I learned last year from Richard Hulbert that there is a technical method for measuring such teeth.  I have summarized in these line drawings info from Hulbert.  Though I have labeled the drawings "EQUUS TEETH," the techniques have much broader application.