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Is this a big Mako tooth?


Bone Daddy

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Is this a Mako tooth?  It was found in the Peace River (Florida) in the same spot as some megalodon teeth, but this one looks different.  

 

Thanks! :)

 

tooth-c-2.jpg

tooth-c-1.jpg

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I would go with Cosmopolitodus (Isurus) hastalis  -- White shark.

 

Tony

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At first we (Josh and I) both thought it was a megalodon. In fact, he gave it to me because he already has teeth bigger than this one, so it classified as a "reject" as far as megs go. 

 

I was looking at it more closely after I got home with it, and it didn't seem right for a megalodon. A Facebook friend who collects fossils suggested that it might be a mako, and then that made me think it might be a great white. I didn't realize great whites went all the way back to the Miocene like the Megalodons. Were the whites and megs contemporaries in the seas at the time?

 

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You are right, here is a link : https://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/florida-vertebrate-fossils/species/carcharodon-hastalis

 

This one is a keeper. This is the biggest one of this type that I have now. I had found a much smaller one last season, but this one is a lot bigger. :)

 

I wonder if Josh would have rejected it if he knew it was a Great White ancestor and not a megalodon.

 

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The shark known as hastalis was classified as a "mako" but they powers that be decided it wes closer to the "great" white so they moved it to the Cosmopolitodus (white sharks) from the hastalis (mako). 

I am not sure if megalodon and great white are contemporaneous, but the great white is a more recent species.

Tony

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Great tooth!

I don't have any white teeth yet!

Maybe the winter!

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Yup. The lack of serrations should have been the first clue that this one was different--it's a respectable size upper. Despite the current controversy as to whether this species was the ancestor to modern day makos or great whites, we still tend to call these makos here in Florida to distinguish them from the serrated great whites or the bulkier megs. I suspect that even if there is mounting evidence that C. hastilis lead to the great white, we'd still have a hard time calling these white shark teeth. Old habits die hard.

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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It's a hair over two inches when measure on the diagonal. And the condition is pretty nice also. Definitely a keeper. :)

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

This was recovered on our last trip to the Peace River (Florida, Polk County). I have received some contrary information about it. At the very first, I thought it was a Megalodon. Closer examination led me to believe it was a Mako. Another collector I know in Denmark suggested it might be "Carcharodon Hastalis".

 

My question is, which is it? What is this tooth exactly?

 

Thanks in advance!  :)

 

 

15095636_10205648145281723_8110929153423872777_n.jpg

tooth-c-2.jpg

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(Merged your new topic with your old one.  ;) )

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4 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

(Merged your new topic with your old one.  ;) )

Thanks John. Now I feel silly. I must be getting forgetful in my old age. That was just a month ago.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Bone Daddy said:

Thanks John. Now I feel silly. I must be getting forgetful in my old age. That was just a month ago.

 

 

 

Now, new eyes will see it.  Last month was a busy month.  ;)

 

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The tooth is a Cosmopolitodus (Isurus) hastalis , AKA. broad tooth mako. But it is a white shark.

Tony

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I've had 4 or 5 different people tell me this is 4 or 5 different species.  LOL.

It turns out that this might be a good one to repost and discuss exactly what this is, since there seems to be a bit of confusion what it is amongst some folk.

 

Although I trust Tony's ID the most so far. I had forgotten about his " Cosmopolitodus (Isurus) hastalis" ID and now I need to change my record and label for it. 

 

Thanks! :)

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The tooth is a "great "find! Hardly a "reject" by any means.

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Agreed. Definitely not a reject. We plan on hitting that same spot again soon, and I will be looking for more of them.

 

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Tony is spot on. In the Peace River we generally call these makos. There is some research to indicate that modern day Great White Sharks (Carcharodon carcharias) did not evolve from C. megalodon though the serrations on both these species would make that seem plausible. If I'm not mistaken the thought is not that the extant GW was derived from mako progenitors. I think the confusion was in some people calling the Broad Tooth Mako, Cosmopolitodus (Isurus) hastalis, a white shark--which it may be but it seems to confuse things. This is, I think, how this befuddlement came to be--that is unless I'm beduffled.

 

Your fine tooth is what we still call a mako (and it's an upper as lower makos are more pointy as grasping and holding teeth while the uppers are the slicers). It is most certainly a Cosmopolitodus (formerly Isurus) hastilis. We find Great White teeth in Florida (though they are more rare) and so call the hastilis makos to avoid any confusion. Clear as mud?

 

This may be useful: https://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/florida-vertebrate-fossils/species/carcharodon-hastalis/

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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Whatever it is, it's a keeper. If Josh wants it back, he'll have to pry it from my cold dead fingers.  LOL.

 

Just kidding. It's a very cool tooth, but it would be better if I actually found it. He found it about 10 feet away from where I was searching.

 

The lesson here is : examine your specimens closely before declaring them "rejects".   ;)

 

 

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Nice! I hadn't seen reference to that paper before. I need to see if I can dig up an open source for that paper so I can read beyond the abstract.

 

Though it is hard to teach old dogs new tricks, it looks like I'm going to have to start calling my "makos" Carcharodon hastalis and start referring to them as "White Shark" teeth instead of "makos". It will cause a bit more confusion with the "Great White Shark" teeth though these are few and far between in the Peace River. I suspect I'll continue to slip and call them "makos" for some time till the new name sinks in. There are a number of references to the older binomials for this species still lingering on Wikipedia and many other online sites and databases. As a result this will likely cause confusion for amateurs for some time into the future.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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So I should have said--  tooth is a Carcharodon   ( Cosmopolitodus) (Isurus) hastalis , AKA. broad tooth mako. But it is a white shark

It is getting confusing!!

Tony

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Yup. The Latin in this name is truly starting to sound like a Latin name. I've been enjoying a new "nostalgia" channel on my cable TV and rewatching ancient (though not fossilized) episodes of The Carol Burnett Show that ran from 1967-1978. Carol had a parody character that was based on the quirky Latin bombshell of the day--Charo (remember her?) This prompted me to do an internet search to read about how and why she came to be known to the public. Charo's birth name is significantly more verbose than her mononymous stage name:

 

María del Rosario Mercedes Pilar Martínez Molina Baeza

 

I think we are safe in now calling this fossil shark species simply Carcharodon hastalis which will be simple to remember as it is now the same genus as our extant Great White Shark (Carcharodon carcharias). Scientists are more concerned with getting the scientific name correct as this is the most precise way of referring to the species. Most taxonomists don't give a hoot about common names, though I've seen a number of fish taxonomists suggesting common names in their papers describing the species to head-off the multitude of common names that would otherwise get attached to the species by every writer of field guide ID books.

 

Most unusual or rarely encountered species tend not to get associated with a common name to match their more precise scientific name. Those that the "general" public has contact with usually end up having the alternative moniker as most (not all) non-scientists tend to have an aversion to pronouncing multi-syllable Latin/Greek names and prefer something that is easier to remember and speak. Till now we've called C. hastalis the "Broad-tooth Mako" to distinguish it from other extinct or extant species like the Shortfin Mako or Longfin Mako.

 

The family Lamnidae, which contains the Great White Shark as well as the makos and related species like the Porbeagle and Salmon Shark, tends to be referred to as "mackerel and white sharks". To my knowledge, I don't believe any sharks outside of Carcharodon have been called "white sharks" as part of their common name so I'm wondering if it seems reasonable to refer to this particular genus as "white sharks"? If so, now that hastalis has joined Carcharodon, it too should be one of the "white sharks". Though disputed and not quite settled, I believe most people now classify to the Megalodon or "Megatooth Shark" in the genus Carcharocles (in family Otodontidae). By my reckoning, this leaves the extant Great White Shark (C. carcharias), the transitional C. hubbelii (Hubbel's White Shark?) and I believe the still valid C. caifassii (Caifass' White Shark?) in the genus. Though the distinction "Broad-tooth" may have made more sense when comparing hastalis with other makos, I'm wondering if "Broad-tooth White Shark" now seems to be the best choice for a common name for this species? The other choice that would seem to suggest itself would be just "White Shark" without the "Great" to distinguish it from the extant species whose teeth we occasionally find as well.

 

I know that people like Tony who have spent lots of time at Sharktooth Hill have an extensive collection of C. hastalis and he would probably enjoy some guidance on what seems reasonable for a common name when referring to these teeth. Any thoughts from those on the forum who might have some insight? I do love when simple posts generate discussion that may be informative.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

 

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7 hours ago, digit said:

I'm wondering if "Broad-tooth White Shark" now seems to be the best choice for a common name for this species?

 

This sounds very reasonable to me. :)

 

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7 hours ago, digit said:

what seems reasonable for a common name when referring to these teeth. Any thoughts from those on the forum who might have some insight?

How about-- Broad tooth makowhite?

Or a smooth tooth white.

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hastalis it's a white, but kinda just OK and not so great.

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