Sellers who flip fossils while claiming they personally discovered it - Is it technically a scam?

[Killclaw]

For what its worth I think I know the dealer being discussed at the start of this thread and I think Troodon is correct, its just a custom template being used as in most cases he and his associates collect most the fossils he sells  from the Hell Creek.

 

Anyway I can vouch for him as a generally trustworthy dealer, whereas certain other dinosaur dealers on the site will more likely mislead you out of ignorance, greed and deliberate deception. 

Its frustrating when you start out as a collector as you don't have an expert eye and tend to believe that the sellers who make a living out of trading dinosaur fossils would know what they are talking about and have some sense of obligation to sell genuine products like normal commercial vendors. Dinosaur fossils are such an imprecise science though that it is easily open to abuse  and its only really by studying a lot of authentic fossils in pictures, museums etc and through having them in your hands and , most vital of all, reading this forum regularly that really aquire the knowledge to judge for yourself. Also having been scammed (and I expect most of us have at some point) make you hypervigilant as there is no worse feeling than having shelled out hundreds of dollars for instance on a carefully moulded lump of putty and sand masquerading as a dinosaur tooth.

 

Going back to the original point though (sorry just needed to get that off my chest!) snapping up a product being sold at less than what you might call 'market value' and then seeing what you can profit on it doesn't seem such a sin. In fact it can benefit you if something really sparks your eye but you don't have the funds in the short term to pay for it someone else will and will snap it up because its a bargain even though it means less to them  and then when its sold for full value you might have time to save up for the deal having originally lost out on it.

 

By the way anybody notice a certain Trike nose horn being sold at discounted price and then marked up and resold 40% higher pretty much instantly with the same description and photos before it could physically have changed hands even in all likelihood?

 

[Wrangellian]

I'm glad I'm not into collecting dinos/shark teeth, although at times it seems the market is almost as hot for the things I do like...

[Raggedy Man]

Selling items under false pretense is fraud.

[jpc]

22 hours ago, FossilDAWG said:

Side tangent alert!!  Also trivial pet peeve alert!!

 

For some reason I find myself getting annoyed at how the word "found" is used by different people.

 

Case 1: "Look at this great fossil I found".  The finder spent a long time researching geological and paleontological papers, then matching geological and topographic maps to identify potentially productive outcrops. After spending more time cultivating relationships with landowners to get permission to access the outcrops, they revisited the sites at intervals over several years.  Eventually they were there at the right time and place to collect an exceptional specimen, which then took many hours with expensive tools to prep.  The prep was well done because of the hundreds of hours the collector had invested in honing their skills.  Ultimately the collector was able to accurately ID the fossil because of the hundreds or thousands of hours they had invested in learning the literature.

 

Case 2: "Look at this great fossil I found".  The finder spent a few hours perusing online links, then purchased a specimen.

 

I understand that not everyone lives where they can collect their own specimens, or they have other circumstances that prevent them getting out in the field.  I also understand that people have assembled great collections through purchasing, and they have also invested the time and effort to really understand the literature and develop deep expertise.  My "complaint" is only that the word "found" is used for such completely different activities.  My own bias is to assume someone actually discovered a specimen in the field when they say they found it, but I suppose that may reflect my own preference to self-collect.  However I don't know what word better fits the buying situation.

 

Don

well said, F-Dawg.  I agree with the other reply...'bought', is the right word.

[tmaier]

I don't buy or sell fossils (I find them), but I do buy antiques and antiquities so I know those traditions more. In that area it is OK to buy something at a very low price and sell for much more if you add to the value either by presenting more information about it, or by having a trusted name that people want to buy from you.

An example of providing more information would be if you saw an item that was not fully described, and you knew what it was, and that it was much more than what is was being presented to be. Your knowledge of the item is worth money, so you buy it and resell it for more money, with the proper description. Knowledge is valuable.

The other instance is if you are respected for a certain type of ware. You can buy low from an individual and sell high, because there is a premium added to the item by having your name stand behind the item.

So those are two cases of buying low and selling high, and they are considered ethical practices of the trade world. People can use their knowledge to make money, it is a fair markplace tradition. In one case your are selling the value of your information, in the other case you are selling the value of your name. It is a "value added" sale.

Lying about what an item is, or where it is from, is of course, not ethical and usually is illegal.

Where the situation can be unethical is when you see somebody selling a valuable something for an absurdly low price. Should you buy it, or is that stealing? My rule is that if I KNOW it is worth a lot more than the asking price, I say "I can't afford to buy this, and you can't afford to sell this, at this price." Wink, wink, nod, nod. There have been a couple times I made a buy from a large organisation (or company) and it was worth much more and I didn't tell them, because they were pretty well off and should have known better. Even then, I feel guilty about those items, but nobody really got hurt by it, and the item ended up in the hands of somebody who appreciated it more (me!).

[-Andy-]

5 hours ago, tmaier said:

I don't buy or sell fossils (I find them), but I do buy antiques and antiquities so I know those traditions more. In that area it is OK to buy something at a very low price and sell for much more if you add to the value either by presenting more information about it, or by having a trusted name that people want to buy from you.

An example of providing more information would be if you saw an item that was not fully described, and you knew what it was, and that it was much more than what is was being presented to be. Your knowledge of the item is worth money, so you buy it and resell it for more money, with the proper description. Knowledge is valuable.

The other instance is if you are respected for a certain type of ware. You can buy low from an individual and sell high, because there is a premium added to the item by having your name stand behind the item.

So those are two cases of buying low and selling high, and they are considered ethical practices of the trade world. People can use their knowledge to make money, it is a fair markplace tradition. In one case your are selling the value of your information, in the other case you are selling the value of your name. It is a "value added" sale.

Lying about what an item is, or where it is from, is of course, not ethical and usually is illegal.

Where the situation can be unethical is when you see somebody selling a valuable something for an absurdly low price. Should you buy it, or is that stealing? My rule is that if I KNOW it is worth a lot more than the asking price, I say "I can't afford to buy this, and you can't afford to sell this, at this price." Wink, wink, nod, nod. There have been a couple times I made a buy from a large organisation (or company) and it was worth much more and I didn't tell them, because they were pretty well off and should have known better. Even then, I feel guilty about those items, but nobody really got hurt by it, and the item ended up in the hands of somebody who appreciated it more (me!).

 

 

Your first 3 points are valid. I've argued for a dealer once who flipped fossils, because he provided quality photos of said fossil with proper ID, and he was a trusted name.

Lying about the item is high on everyone's problem-dealer list I think. From time to time, we have to point out these listings out on the forums. Troodon alone contributes much to our awareness.

The last bit is honestly hard to enact in auction sites with a fast buyout, because there's no guarantee a seller would read your message before someone else buys said item. In real life, I like to think I would do the same as you though. I did once win a low bid on an item I knew was of greater value to the seller(as I've talked to him on FB). I offered to cancel the transaction, but he chose to honor the deal