Triassic Siberian Ceratite

[sander]

Dear members of The Fossil Forum,

 

I am busy on the identification of all the fossils in my collection, but some fossils are causing trouble, one of which I will show here.

It is 23mm.

The name tag says it is an Arctohungarites sp. but in my opinion the umbilicus is too big for Arctohungarites.

It looks more like Nordophiceras but I do not know if the fastigate venter is common for that genus.

It might very well be neither of these genuses, my knowledge on Siberian ceratites is very limited.

 

The findspot is Northern Siberia, but where exactly is not stated.

I know of two sites, Cape Tsvetsov and the Olenek river, does the preservation of this ammonite point at one of these two?

 

The age of the ceratite is said to be Middle Triassic, which means Anisian-Ladinian, although most of the siberian triassic ammonites are Olenekian in age.

Apparently Arctohungarites is an Anisian genus, but I am not sure that this ammonite is an Arctohungarites.

 

So my questions are:

What Genus and species is this ceratite?

Where does it come from?

What age is it?

 

Is there anyone who can shed light onto this ceratite and help me?

Thanks in advance,

Sander

[caldigger]

Can't help on ID, but he's a handsome little guy.

[Fossildude19]

Maybe @andreas will be able to give some insight on this.  

 

[tmaier]

Any fossils that are causing trouble can be sent to behavioral modification camp. Please send to

Youth Camp for Better Fossil Behavior
Yuckachuckle Way
Bravington, FL zip-a-doo-da

In just 18 years we will return to you a well behaved fossil, that knows how to play the piano.

[ynot]

14 minutes ago, tmaier said:

Any fossils that are causing trouble can be sent to behavioral modification camp. Please send to

Youth Camp for Better Fossil Behavior
Yuckachuckle Way
Bravington, FL zip-a-doo-da

In just 18 years we will return to you a well behaved fossil, that knows how to play the piano.
 

Nice one! (but You got the zip code wrong. It should be "zip-ITTY-doo- da"

 

Tony

 

PS @Ludwigia may be able to help with the ID.

[Ludwigia]

Sorry, but Ceratites are another class for me, or should I say order? I'm not bad on Ammonitida, especially the Jurassic ones, but I'm out of my depth on these. Have you checked out the variability of that species? Sander, you seem to know your stuff, so your guess is probably better than mine. Maybe you could ask @andreas. He know his Triassic very well....Ooops! I just noticed that Tim already suggested him. He's really your best bet here.

[fifbrindacier]

5 hours ago, tmaier said:

Any fossils that are causing trouble can be sent to behavioral modification camp. Please send to

Youth Camp for Better Fossil Behavior
Yuckachuckle Way
Bravington, FL zip-a-doo-da

In just 18 years we will return to you a well behaved fossil, that knows how to play the piano.
 

So much violence in that poor little ceratite, that beats me down !

[doushantuo]

http://ftp.maps.canada.ca/pub/nrcan_rncan/publications/ess_sst/106/106428/bu_170.pdf

 

nevada

biogeography,metodology,clustering:

 

Brayard et al. 2009 JAES.pdf

Brayard et al 2009 palaeontology.pdf

[doushantuo]

http://www.foss-rec.net/16/197/2013/fr-16-197-2013.pdf

ware:

 

Ware D. et al 2015 - Biochronology and diversity of Dienerian ammonoids from the N Indian Margin.pdf

Ware D. et al. 2011 - Dienerian ammonoids from the Candelaria.pdf

lukeneder:

 

Lukeneder_Lukeneder_2014.pdf

[doushantuo]

 

A certain Andreas is interested in Triassic ammo's i noticed.

That's interesting,conidering it's an anagram of sander

[andreas]

Hi,

As you know I am more familar with upper Triassic ammonoids. Here my suggestion. I think genus identifikation Arctohungarites sp. on the Label could maybe be correct.

According to Tozer 1994,p.106, his new subfamily Czekanowskitinae is consistent of the following genera.

 

Czekanowskites DIENER

Tetsaoceras TOZER

Stannakhites VAILOV

Arctohungarites DIENER

 

Tozers 1994, Arctohungarites liardensis,Middle Anisian, Hayesi Zone, on plate 52, fig. 9,10 look similar.

But without exact location and accompanying ammonoids this is just a better guess.

[sander]

Thank you all very much!

Unfortunately in all those papers I couldn't find one ceratite that looked like mine. (I haven't got Tozer 1994 so maybe it is A. liardensis but i cannot check it).

it is strange that I cannot even find out in scientific papers how all the bio-zone Arctohungarites species look like, since in my eyes it is pretty useful to have at least these on the web in order to identify the biozonation. I guess my ceratite is not very rare, so it very probably could be one of these biozone Arctohungarites.

according to this website:

http://www.ammonites.fr/Etages/Anisien.htm

There are 4 (Boreio or Arcto)hungarites biozones, there is kharaulakensis, laevigatus, triformis and ventroplanus.

From this website:

http://www.morozova-art.ru/fossil/triassic_ceratites.htm

kharaulakensis looks a bit like it although mine is smooth and does not have the gentle ripples.

laevigatus is much too rippled so that isn't mine either.

on this website:

http://www.lithologia.com/ARCTOHUNGARITES-TRIFORMIS-var-LAEVIGATUS-bbaaaaFta.asp

Arctohungarites triformis is present which actually does look a lot like mine, at least the venter seems correct, but i think my specimen has got a wider umbilicus and I do not see those ripples on it.

I could not find a photo of Arctohungarites ventroplanus.

 

The problem with the above mentioned websites is that I don't know whether they are correct in their identification, they do not look very scientifically orientated but more focused on the sale and collecting of these ammonites, and i know from my own experience that those identifications are not always correct.

 

Also the russian website shows other ceratites that are also similar in their looks, but also these have not got a photo of their venters; I am talking about the Timoceras and Stenopopanoceras. maybe someone here has got scientific sources that show these ceratites and maybe there will be a match with one of them?

 

at least I hope there will be a match with my ceratites, or else I'd have to send it alone to the behaviour camp. I'd also like to know his name so i will not take the wrong nice-behaving fossil with me when the summer vacation will begin and the behaviour camp is temporarily closed  

Thanks in advance,

Sander

 

[andreas]

Stenopopanoceras is possible too. It show a similar venter. Timoceras do not show a keel on the venter. You can look for Timoceras(=Dinarites glacialis MOJS) in Mojs. 1886 Arktische Triasfaunen.

Doushantuo provided this to the Fossil forum.

[sander]

You are right about Stenopopanoceras, I did some more digging and indeed Stenopopanoceras transiens has got a keel on its venter I saw in this Iranian document:

http://idochp2.irandoc.ac.ir/FulltextManager/fulltext15/in/0/903.pdf

on the 6th pdf page number 4 and 5 are Stenopopanoceras transies.

the other Stenopopanoceras species that have been found in siberia are:

S. karangatiense and S. mirabile

http://fossilworks.org/?a=collectionSearch&taxon_no=14405&max_interval=Triassic&country=Russian Federation&is_real_user=1&basic=yes&type=view&match_subgenera=1

 

but they do not have this keel, have a different umbilicus and are more fatter.

in this paper: http://ashipunov.info/shipunov/school/books/dagis1981_trias_amm_sev_sib_parapopanoceratidae_igig_495.pdf

plate 1, photo 4 and 5 are S. mirabile just as all specimens on table 2 and 3. table 4 shows S. karangatiense.

 

Do you perhaps know the difference between Arctohungarites triformis and Stenopopanoceras transies? I think that the umbilicus on S. transies is bigger as in my specimen but the Iranian pictures are not the best I have seen. 

At least it seems that the two contenders are both from the Anisian stage, so I think that the name tag was right on that point, it is not Olenekian in age.

Greetings,

Sander