gms Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 Hi all I have no clue about the owner of this tiny theropod tooth coming from Kem Kem basin (Morocco). To whom it may belong? Size: 1cm more or less. It appears that its shape is different from those identified as Carcharodontosaurus, but denticles are of similar size in both carinae, so it may not belong to dromaeosaurids. Abelisaurid perhaps? Thank you very much in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runner64 Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 Very interesting tooth you have there. Frankly I'm not even sure what it belongs to other then a theropod tooth. Serrations look too big to be abelisaurid and the tooth is too small and doesn't have the right shape to be Carchardontosaurus. This resembles more of a dromeosaurid tooth than anything else in my opinion which would make it a rare find however there's so much that has to be discovered about the Kem Kem Beds. Let's see if anyone else has some input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgehiker Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 2 hours ago, Runner64 said: Very interesting tooth you have there. Frankly I'm not even sure what it belongs to other then a theropod tooth. Serrations look too big to be abelisaurid and the tooth is too small and doesn't have the right shape to be Carchardontosaurus. This resembles more of a dromeosaurid tooth than anything else in my opinion which would make it a rare find however there's so much that has to be discovered about the Kem Kem Beds. Let's see if anyone else has some input. Same here. If I was to find that tooth here in our badlands I'd label it raptor and possible Dromeosaurid but ?. It can't be labeled to genus with any confidence...just educated speculation. I have teeth from the same raptor jaw and even they can seem different from each other. Add this to the fact that there is no definitive finite list of raptors. The best one can do is say that there is a list of theropods found in published research papers from the site and the tooth may be one of them. All the more reason why location is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfossilcollector Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 I agree with Canadawest and Runner64, Kem Kem theropod indeterminate, at least for now. Very nice tooth by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDudeCO Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 @Troodon or @Susan from PA should be able to help. I know they are mostly Hell Creek experts, but they can point in the right direction? They will want more views of the tooth! Hope this helps and that is a very nice tooth btw! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfossilcollector Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 1 hour ago, FossilDudeCO said: @Troodon or @Susan from PA should be able to help. I know they are mostly Hell Creek experts, but they can point in the right direction? They will want more views of the tooth! Hope this helps and that is a very nice tooth btw! Agreed! Troodon's dissertation on Kem Kem material, available by searching his content on this forum, is invaluable! Susan from PA is very knowledgeable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gms Posted December 8, 2016 Author Share Posted December 8, 2016 Thank you guys for shedding light on this. Let's leave it as "theropod indet" unless otherwise stated by Troodon etc. I have never seen something similar to this dino tooth before. Any other opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Interesting tooth. Does indeed look a bit different from Carcharodontosaurus and Abelisaurid teeth. I agree, theropod indet. is probably best for the time being. Even if you find out what type of theropod it is you probably won't be able to put a name on it since not a lot of theropods have been named in Kem Kem at the moment. And most of the ones that have been named aren't named by their teeth. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gms Posted December 8, 2016 Author Share Posted December 8, 2016 33 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said: Interesting tooth. Does indeed look a bit different from Carcharodontosaurus and Abelisaurid teeth. I agree, theropod indet. is probably best for the time being. Even if you find out what type of theropod it is you probably won't be able to put a name on it since not a lot of theropods have been named in Kem Kem at the moment. And most of the ones that have been named aren't named by their teeth. You are right...for the avoidance of doubt. Thanks for your reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan from PA Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 I'm late to the party, but agree with @LordTrilobite. Since not much has been published on Kem Kem Theropods, identifying it as Theropod indet. would be the most accurate at this point. Perhaps one day, when more species are discovered, you'll be able to place a more definitive name on your specimen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zekky Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 I lean Abelisaur, but theropod ident is your best bet right now. A close up of the serrations would help a lot. Nice funky tooth btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max-fossils Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 I'm not sure whether this helps, but here is my input: List of all the theropods discovered so far in Kem Kem: Abelisaurids: Abelisauridae indet. Majungasaurus crenatissimus (wrong) Carcharodontosaurids: Carcharodontosaurus saharicus Sauroniops pachytholus Dromaeosaurids: Dromaeosauridae indet. Noasaurids: Elaphrosaurus bambergi (wrong) (<-- my second best guess for your tooth) Neovenatorids: Deltadromeus agilis (<-- my best guess for your tooth!) Spinosaurids: (<-- your tooth is definitely not one of those) Spinosaurus maroccanus Sigilmassasaurus brevicollis Unknown: Inosaurus tedreftensis Saurischia indet. My best guess for your tooth is Deltadromeus agilis. Here is a picture of a possible tooth of that dino (from Google): Anyways here is a topic from the forum I found which will probably be very useful: Did you find that tooth yourself, or did you buy it? Best regards, and good luck getting your amazing tooth an ID! Max Max Derème "I feel an echo of the lightning each time I find a fossil. [...] That is why I am a hunter: to feel that bolt of lightning every day." - Mary Anning >< Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier Instagram: @world_of_fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gms Posted December 9, 2016 Author Share Posted December 9, 2016 All, Thank you for your kindness. You comments and suggestions are more than welcome. Max, I bought it to a dealer. He sold me the tooth as "Ihavenoideasaurus Sp." Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max-fossils Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 2 hours ago, gms said: Max, I bought it to a dealer. He sold me the tooth as "Ihavenoideasaurus Sp." A new species!!! Max Derème "I feel an echo of the lightning each time I find a fossil. [...] That is why I am a hunter: to feel that bolt of lightning every day." - Mary Anning >< Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier Instagram: @world_of_fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Definitely not raptor. I am leaning towards abellisaurid. Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runner64 Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 3 hours ago, Max-fossils said: My second best guess is Elaphrosaurus bambergi, even though the fossils from Kem Kem first assigned to this genus are now considered indet. Here is a picture of that dino from Google. This tooth comes from Madagascar acording to the seller (which is weird, so this may not be a real Elaphrosaurus tooth...): Just letting you know Elaphrosaurus comes from the Jurassic deposits in Tanzania and are from the Tendagura Beds. Lots of sellers label teeth from Madagascar and Morocco as Elaphrosaurus in order to increase market value and to interest more buyers even though a genus name is not the most important thing at the end of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifbrindacier Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 2 hours ago, Max-fossils said: A new species!!! He must have mistaken it for Ivanohe. "On ne voit bien que par le coeur, l'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." (Antoine de Saint-Exupéry) "We only well see with the heart, the essential is invisible for the eyes." In memory of Doren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max-fossils Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Runner64 said: Just letting you know Elaphrosaurus comes from the Jurassic deposits in Tanzania and are from the Tendagura Beds. Lots of sellers label teeth from Madagascar and Morocco as Elaphrosaurus in order to increase market value and to interest more buyers even though a genus name is not the most important thing at the end of the day. True, I didn't think of that. Thanks for reminding me! Max Max Derème "I feel an echo of the lightning each time I find a fossil. [...] That is why I am a hunter: to feel that bolt of lightning every day." - Mary Anning >< Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier Instagram: @world_of_fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgehiker Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 7 hours ago, Runner64 said: Just letting you know Elaphrosaurus comes from the Jurassic deposits in Tanzania and are from the Tendagura Beds. Lots of sellers label teeth from Madagascar and Morocco as Elaphrosaurus in order to increase market value and to interest more buyers even though a genus name is not the most important thing at the end of the day. Wise advice. Thus why its good to find out what is actually found in the published research papers and use their descriptions and illustrations. Comparing a specimen to a photo on the Internet is often just perpetuating mistaken identification. We get this all the time with our Cretaceous dino material and its resulted in 80% of teeth and bones in collections having the wrong genus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runner64 Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Canadawest said: Wise advice. Thus why its good to find out what is actually found in the published research papers and use their descriptions and illustrations. Comparing a specimen to a photo on the Internet is often just perpetuating mistaken identification. We get this all the time with our Cretaceous dino material and its resulted in 80% of teeth and bones in collections having the wrong genus. Especially for Morocco. Many sellers use labels such as Bahariasahrus, Deltadromeus, Elaphrosaurus, and maybe even Sigilmissaurus in the future. Sometimes these dinosaurs aren't even found in that location, i.e. Elaphrosaurus and Bahariasahrus or their teeth haven't been discovered quite yet like Delta and Sigilmissaurus. Sometimes a quick google search is good for getting some quick, easy facts. But if you really want to get some information I suggest finding some real papers and other sources of publication and simply reading through them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 Teeth for Deltadromeus also have not been found yet. At least not in context with conclusive Deltadromeus material. So you can't label teeth as such. Most teeth from Kem Kem can't be identified down to the species level at the moment. Even Spinosaurids and Carcharodontosaurids have problems. Since there are at least two Spinosaurids. Sigilmassasaurus brevicollis and Spinosaurus aegypticus. Spinosaurus maroccanus has been synonymised with both S. brevicollis and S. aegypticus in the past so that doesn't help either. There also appear to be more than one Carcharodontosaurid at Kem Kem. So tecnically those teeth are also best to just identify to the family level. I think the holotype of Sigilmassasaurus is from Kem Kem though, so that might be the only one of those that we can be absolutely sure is present. There is at least one abelisaurid present at Kem Kem, the teeth can be clearly identified to the family level. Some ascribe these to cf. Rugops primus. There is an Abelisaurid species named from Kem Kem. But that species is based on just a leg. The raptors in Kem Kem are still very enigmatic. Several morphologically unique teeth have been identified from Kem Kem. But those do not have any name or family attached to them. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runner64 Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 3 hours ago, LordTrilobite said: Teeth for Deltadromeus also have not been found yet. At least not in context with conclusive Deltadromeus material. So you can't label teeth as such. Most teeth from Kem Kem can't be identified down to the species level at the moment. Even Spinosaurids and Carcharodontosaurids have problems. Since there are at least two Spinosaurids. Sigilmassasaurus brevicollis and Spinosaurus aegypticus. Spinosaurus maroccanus has been synonymised with both S. brevicollis and S. aegypticus in the past so that doesn't help either. There also appear to be more than one Carcharodontosaurid at Kem Kem. So tecnically those teeth are also best to just identify to the family level. I think the holotype of Sigilmassasaurus is from Kem Kem though, so that might be the only one of those that we can be absolutely sure is present. There is at least one abelisaurid present at Kem Kem, the teeth can be clearly identified to the family level. Some ascribe these to cf. Rugops primus. There is an Abelisaurid species named from Kem Kem. But that species is based on just a leg. The raptors in Kem Kem are still very enigmatic. Several morphologically unique teeth have been identified from Kem Kem. But those do not have any name or family attached to them. Very true, thanks for adding that as well. I did not know there is a possible second carchardontosaurid from this location. Can you expand upon that? I would love to hear more about this. I believe there's also the same problem with sauropod teeth. Rebbachisaurus teeth are common from the location however I've heard there's also other types of sauropod teeth being found such as a type of diplodicid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 " Comparing a specimen to a photo on the Internet is often just perpetuating mistaken identification. " It's like that game called "telephone". You get a string of people and start whispering a phrase at one end, and out the other end comes something very different. The errors are cumlative. That's what happens on the internet with classifications. It becomes rumors. So it is safaest to append question marks on to each classification when you post them to the web, to warn people if there is any doubt. Hopefully it will stop them from using your specimen as a holotype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 46 minutes ago, Runner64 said: Very true, thanks for adding that as well. I did not know there is a possible second carchardontosaurid from this location. Can you expand upon that? I would love to hear more about this. I believe there's also the same problem with sauropod teeth. Rebbachisaurus teeth are common from the location however I've heard there's also other types of sauropod teeth being found such as a type of diplodicid. Sorry I don't know much more about a possible other Carcharodontosaurid that might be present at Kem Kem. I personally don't have any experience with Sauropod teeth so I can't comment on that either. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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