Jump to content

Fossils in Canada property of the Toronto Museum?


FossilDudeCO

Recommended Posts

I had an interesting conversation with my Executive Director today....

I recently acquired some fossils from a TFF member in Canada, and I took the pieces I got to him because I thought he may be interested.

 

I handed him my newly acquired fossil worm burrows and made him figure out what they were, no information, just here tell me what you think.

 

He stared at them, pulled out a loupe, stared at them, and announces it is a worm burrow....he looks some more, and then says, but I don't recognize this rock.

 

I told him it was a Canadian specimen to which he replied, "is it legal?"

 

I was caught off guard. I informed him how I came about it, and he commenced to tell me that years ago when he was working in Canada, all fossils were legally property of the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto, everything was supposed to go through them.

 

Bear in mind, he is going on 70 so when he was in Canada it was quite a few years back, but it got me wondering...I know we have lots of Canadian members on here.

 

Can anyone enlighten me as to the comments he made? Have any of you heard this before?

 

As I said, it caught me off guard, I know it has been mentioned on here that it is legal to surface collect in Canada, but not dig, but I had not heard anything about all finds being routed through the ROM.

 

Let's hear what you have to say!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No. the ROM is a provincial museum.  Its like saying the state museum in New Mexico has jurisdiction over all American fossils.

 

There is no universal fossil jurisdicion in Canada. Federal lands, provincial lands, mining claims and First Nations all have various laws...and, on top of this, existing fossil ownership is grandfathered in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

5 minutes ago, Canadawest said:

No. the ROM is a provincial museum.  Its like saying the state museum in New Mexico has jurisdiction over all American fossils.

 

There is no universal fossil jurisdicion in Canada. Federal lands, provincial lands, mining claims and First Nations all have various laws...and, on top of this, existing fossil ownership is grandfathered in.

 

So what about Alberta, Would the Royal Tyrell have claims over any fossils you found?

Or rather, would the museum in each province have claims over fossils in that region?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, in Alberta we have various jurisdictions. The governments at various levels make legislation.  This is no different from the USA.   A museum may have a mandate from the province to conduct research, house specimens, etc.  So may a university, another museum, etc.

 

Our province has a commitee made up of various members to guide legislation. However, this committee is for povincial juridiction.  The Federal government has jurisdiction in the National parks and First Nations have jurisdiction and input on the extensive reserves.

 

Bottom line there is widespread  cooperation  and general consensus on the state of paleontology in Alberta. Most amateurs and professionals  get along and there are volunteer opportunities, etc. It is agreed that fossils and artifacts are not commercial products ( with a few exceptions) and this has fostered a thriving paleo community. The Alberta Paleontological Society is a positive outcome

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Ontario you can collect and keep any fossils that you find on land that is private for which you have permission. You can collect on public land as long as it is not posted and that you are not harming the environment and are not breaking the law. For example stopping to collect on the side of a 400 series highway is generally a good way to get a ticket, but not for the actual collecting of the fossils.. Most provincial parks are off limits for legal collecting. Certain areas that would be nice to collect in such as the Niagara Gorge are off limits. All in all we do not have a lot of really good spots left since most Quarry's are reluctant to let people in because of liability issues.

 

The general rule is that as an American you can take out up to 50 pounds of non vertebrate material that you have collected yourself for non commercial purposes and you will not be hassled by the Canadian or American Customs staff.

 

Heck I have tried to donate some significant finds over the years to the ROM and they are generally not all that interested. Hence I usually donate unique specimens to academics who are doing research in that area.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Canada as a whole has a law governing the export of "cultural property".  Invertebrate or vertebrate fossils with a market value of $500 or more require an export permit.  Also bulk vertebrate fossils exceeding 25 pounds, or invertebrates/plants exceedeing 50 pounds, should have a permit.  See here for more specific info.  Invertebrate trace fossils would certainly be OK for export without a permit.

 

Don

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for this, Don. I was left a bit curious as to how they compute "fair market value" for fossils, as it appears to be somewhat nebulous. I am assuming it does not refer to the listed price on the parcel being sent (for it can be quite easy to simply class it as a gift with no monetary value). It's not as if I can wander into a Canadian Tire and buy a eurypterid off the shelf (Oh, if I could!). And, given the wild ranges one might find on auction sites, would it be correct to assume the FMV would be calculated as an average  [EDIT: nope. Highest dollar amount fetched, which can truly skew the value affixed for export] (and, if so, what of specimens that are not on these sites and might not have as much reliable precedent to determine FMV? Would they have access to aggregate sales for non-online retailers? So many questions perhaps only the Feds can answer - or not!). 

 

In terms of certifying cultural property and assessing FMV, this somewhat vague statement can be found on the website for the Canadian Cultural Export Review Board, relying on the Canadian Revenue Agency's definition in The Income Tax Act:

 

"The highest price, expressed in dollars, that property would bring in an open and unrestricted market, between a willing buyer and a willing seller who are both knowledgeable, informed, and prudent, and who are acting independently of each other."

 

I suppose what may be construed as vague in that statement would be the assumption (or demonstration to prove if necessary if there was an appeal for value redetermination) informed buyers and sellers. I am bearing in mind here that this applies distinctly to designated organizations, not individuals, but the FMV provision remains in force for both. 

...How to Philosophize with a Hammer

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I recall correctly, if a specimen meets the criteria for "cultural property" it must be examined by a qualified expert and offered for sale to Canadian museums at market price.  If no museums want to buy it, and export permit will be issued.  That assumes the item was legally obtained in the first place.  I recall that some years ago a dealer took a bunch of Wapiti Lake fish and ichthyosaur fossils to sell at the Tucson show without an export permit, so the fossils were seized and he was fined.  At the time the Wapiti Lake site was not "protected" so the dealer did not break any law collecting the fossils, just bringing them out of the country without giving Canadian museums first dibs at buying them.  Had he gone through the proper process he could have sold the fossils in Canada, and if no-one wanted them he would have been given a permit to bring them to Tucson.  On the other hand fossils from national parks, or looted artifacts from protected archaeological sites, would likely just be confiscated (and you'd get a big fine).

 

No-one is going to care about horn corals/brachiopods/trilobites/crinoids from Arkona, for example.  I've not seen too many invertebrate or plant fossils from Canada that would be valued over $500.  A T-rex skull would be a different issue; I think that is what the law is designed to prevent being sold out of country before Canadian institutions get an opportunity to bid on it.

 

Don

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apart from some very unique examples (stuff from the Burgess shales, for example), I agree that inverts shouldn't raise any alarms. Of course, that all changes if I have Justin Bieber bless the object :P Maybe he can be convinced to write some canned auto-tune song about fossils, and then we can sell him to the US.

 

So does that pound limit refer to the actual fossil, or the fossil + matrix it appears in? I ask because I do like to bring matrix with me over a border where I am unsure if there is anything of significance. And, as you might distantly recall, Don (in Georgia), Ontario winters can be long and brutal and leaving us in need of something to split when the lake effect dumps its white stuff on us! - Not so much an issue now with rain throughout SW Ontario, but not safe enough to venture to our honey holes. I was always confused about issues surrounding un-split matrix. How much can I bring into Canada from the US, for example? And, for our US friends, how much matrix can they bring back home? Is that contingent upon where it was acquired, and are CBSA/Homeland Security equipped to make that determination?

...How to Philosophize with a Hammer

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Kane said:

How much can I bring into Canada from the US, for example? And, for our US friends, how much matrix can they bring back home? Is that contingent upon where it was acquired, and are CBSA/Homeland Security equipped to make that determination?

 

Customs here in the US can be jerks sometimes, they wouldn't know a rock if it bit em.

Technically US law prohibits "soil samples" I have had issues with some of my sand collection vials before (coming in from Mexico!)

If customs wanted to be jerks I am sure they could technically call matrix a soil sample, and therefore deny it without permits. Arguing with them would be like talking to a brick wall.

 

Thanks for the input from everyone, I am learning quite a bit about collection laws to the North :P

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thankfully, I bring matrix into Canada. Couldn't imagine what it would be like the other way around.

...How to Philosophize with a Hammer

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...