JojoMozza Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Hi all, I've this nice vertebra fossil from the Hell Creek Formation in Harding County, South Dakota. I'm pretty sure it is a Crocodillian vert but not sure of the species or genus. Also, is it possible to tell which part of the body this belonged to? Any suggestions are welcome and much appreciated! Cheers, Jojo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JojoMozza Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pemphix Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Hi Jojo, Congrats - very nice find ! Unfortunately, not my hunting area (wish it would be...) so others might help you more here: @Canadawest or @Troodon Let's wait and see... Best regards, Pemphix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JojoMozza Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 Thanks Pemphix, I bought it online and unfortunately the seller couldn't tell me what it was exactly. Cheers, jojo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgehiker Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I've collected a lot of croc vertebrae from Late Cretaceous formations. Too big. Im not qite getting detail on the side but looks like a Tyrannosaur vertebra. Upper caudal. The theropod verts have a noticeable indentation (pleroceol) along the side of the centrum. Your one appears to hwve this feature. note. One would think that Tyrannosaur would be easy to identify. They are if it is definitely Cretaceous. The issue is when the age is undetermined and then some vertebrae elements from Cenozoic carnivorous mammals can resemble theropod ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JojoMozza Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 Thank you Canadawest, I'm very pleasantly surprised that it could be a tyrannosaur! I'll try to take some more photos soon with better angles. When I bought this (along with many other bits and pieces) the seller said that it was found 5 miles from where Sue was discovered. Not sure if that's true or not but I think it is definitely from Hell Creek though. Would it help if some measurements of the vertebra was supplied? Thanks again for your help! Jojo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 1 hour ago, JojoMozza said: Would it help if some measurements of the vertebra was supplied? Always!!! Tony Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 I'm not a specialist in this, but, a crushed/broken, glued-back Mosasaur vertebra... is ruled out? Something similar to this verts? " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zekky Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 It does look theropod to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Hmmm...this is a tough one. Definitely not a croc. I think it is too small to be T rex. Also, tyrannosaurs don't have a convex end like this guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JarrodB Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 It's not Mosasaur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 9 hours ago, jpc said: Hmmm...this is a tough one. Definitely not a croc. I think it is too small to be T rex. Also, tyrannosaurs have a convex end like this guy. Not sure about other tyrannosaurs, but doesn't T. rex have acoelous vertebrae? While this vertebra is very clearly either opistocoelous or procoelous. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 2 hours ago, LordTrilobite said: Not sure about other tyrannosaurs, but doesn't T. rex have acoelous vertebrae? While this vertebra is very clearly either opistocoelous or procoelous. indeed. This made me check my previous post and I realize that I neglected to include the word "don't". So, yes, tyrannosaurus rex does not have a bulbous end to its verts like this thing. I think it is fair to say that naontyrannus would have the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Oooohhh. I got it! Hadrosaur cervical vert. Cervical verts in dinosaurs are indeed opistocelous. Tyranniosaur neck verts are very short in a fore to aft direction. Ceratopsians verts are stouter. I found a drawing in my "Dinosaurs under the Big Sky" that shows a hadr cerv that looks an awful lot like this. p. 162 if yu have the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opisthotriton Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 2 hours ago, jpc said: Oooohhh. I got it! Hadrosaur cervical vert. Cervical verts in dinosaurs are indeed opistocelous. Tyranniosaur neck verts are very short in a fore to aft direction. Ceratopsians verts are stouter. I found a drawing in my "Dinosaurs under the Big Sky" that shows a hadr cerv that looks an awful lot like this. p. 162 if yu have the book. I checked p162 in Big Sky and I can see the similarity you mention in the drawing, but in 3D hadrosaur cervicals are extremely different. For example: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141304 For one thing, cervical vertebrae should have a very large neural canal for the spinal cord. This vert has a very small neural canal, and is rather elongated, suggesting a caudal (if it was dinosaur, but I don't think it is, plus your vert is a bit crushed in that area, so the neural canal might be larger than it seems). Also, look at the orientations of the prezygapohysis (superior articular process) and postzygapophysis (inferior articular process). Prezygs face up, post zygs face down. That means the very first photo in this thread (shown below) has the anterior to the left, with the prezyg facing up, and posterior to the right, with the postzyg facing down. So it is concave anteriorly, and convex posteriorly (termed a procoelous vertebra). However, hadrosaur and tyrannosaur cervicals are opisthocoelous - convex anteriorly, and concave posteriorly. Crocodile verts are procoelous like this one. So, this is likely a crocodilian vert, not dinosaur. It is certainly a large croc for the Hell Creek. Not nearly as big as Deinosuchus from the Judith River Formation, though. Here are some images from the Deinosuchus description: Holland, WJ. 1909. Deinosuchus hatcheri, a new genus and species of crocodile from the Judith River Beds of Montana. Annals of the Carnegie Museum VI(1):281-294. https://archive.org/details/DeinosuchusHatcheriANewGenusAndSpeciesOfCrocodileFromTheJudithRiv The figured Deinosuchus vertebra is 14 cm long (anterior-posterior), which is much larger than your vert, but that's fine because Deinosuchus lived in the Campanian Judith River Formation, not the Maastrichtian Hell Creek Formation. Still a very large croc for the Hell Creek, but not outrageous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Well, I think, I was not too far from the ID with my Mosasaurus thought. Also, here is a vertebra from Hell Creek, South Dakota, taken from the web (not mine). Can it be identified? " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 good catch ophis... indeed, the concave end on this bone is facing forward. If this is a croc, it huge for the Hell Creek. For those wondering what she is talking about, look at the last photo in the original post which I reproduce below: We are looking down onto the top of the vert. The concentric circles on a flat surface on the right end of this photo is the prezygapophesis, it is facing up (towards us). The large lobe on the left side is the postzygapophesis, it is facing down. The one facing up goes towards to head, the other towards the tail. If you look at the out of focus centrum below all of this, the convex one is on the left, therefore the concave one leads to the head. This is the case in crocodiles... and mosasurs. (but this is not a mosasaur in my book) So I go with very large Hell Creel crocodile. Cool. abyssunder... I would also call this a croc vert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JojoMozza Posted January 29, 2017 Author Share Posted January 29, 2017 Wow, thank you guys so much for all this information. It blows my mind how much you know! Here are some measurements for the vert and some more pictures from different angles. If this is a croc vert, which genus do you suggest this belonged to @Opisthotriton and @jpc, if it's possible? Sorry the lighting isn't good and hope this helps. If more photos are needed feel free to ask! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JojoMozza Posted January 29, 2017 Author Share Posted January 29, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JojoMozza Posted January 29, 2017 Author Share Posted January 29, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JojoMozza Posted January 29, 2017 Author Share Posted January 29, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 I don't think croc verts can be ID'd to genus. This one should be IDable based on size, but I also don't think there is such a big croc described from the Hell Creek or lance Fm's. opist...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JojoMozza Posted January 29, 2017 Author Share Posted January 29, 2017 7 minutes ago, jpc said: I don't think croc verts can be ID'd to genus. This one should be IDable based on size, but I also don't think there is such a big croc described from the Hell Creek or lance Fm's. opist...? Could it possibly be a new genus? I've got other bits that were found with the vert (or at least that was what the seller told me) including what looks to be a jaw bit (could be wrong). I'll take some photos of that when I get home. This is exciting! Thank you! Jojo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JojoMozza Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 By the way @jpc, how big do you think this crocodillian was? If there is a way to tell. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I really don't know how big this thing would be. I have some Eocene croc verts that are maybe this big... (they remain unprepped in plaster jacket and I haven't seen them for 15 years) and the skull on that guy is about 2 feet long. From my quick internet search, a 2 foot long skull indicates a 20 foot long modern saltwater croc. But that is only a guess. Take some pix... we'll do our best to tell you what you've got. Could be an undescribed species, yes, but a single vert will not make a new species. And just cuz I said I don't know of any Hell Creek crocs this big doesn't mean they are known. But to make it officially (scientifically) a new species it would need to be described in a scientific journal and the bones would need to be donated to a museum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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