EQUUS Identifications

[Shellseeker]

I was out hunting yesterday. One of my frequent finds in the Peace River is horse teeth , usually Equus .sp. I found one yesterday. Typical Equus upper molar. EquusExample#1

 

I am very interested in horse fossil teeth but have focused on pre-Equus.  To tell the truth I just do not know a lot or can tell differences between Equus variations like Equus Simplicidens or Equus Complicatus, etc but I am about to learn!! My education should focus on Florida because that is what I tend to find, but I am interested in but I am interested in any publications that can effectively differentiate Equus .sp.  I will start by searching TFF and checking out Harry's gallary.

A week ago a hunting friend gave me a box of horse teeth he had found all of which he believed to be Equus. Actually he wants the teeth back . I am just doing the identification & analysis.

Lots of teeth!!!! My 1st separation was 1) large uppers 2) lowers, 3) not fully erupted 4) m3 lowers, 5) M3 uppers, and a few odd ones. While many teeth are worn or chipped, there are some fantastic teeth like this one below. EquusExample#2

 

Note what I refer to as the "squiggles".  I generally have used these to differentiate pre-Equus horse species and I am wondering what variations I might see in equus.

 

[doushantuo]

I think i said this before but check out Vera Eisenman's or Ann Forsten's work

So you need info on Hipparionids,Anchitherium,etc?

[Shellseeker]

Apologies for the additional post.  I need to improve my photo compression techniques. A couple of more examples from the Equus box. The 2 isolated ones in thread #1 . I will label EquusExample#1 and EquusExample#2. 

Here is EquusExample#3:  Same basic Equus shape but different squiggles here .. What is happening? Is this a different Equus species or do we allow variation in the squiggles?

 

And then this tooth that REALLY sparks my interest!!!! I do not think it belongs in a box of Equus teeth but I have been wrong before!!!

HipparionineExample#4

 

WoW!!!  Larger tooth,  isolated protocone.  Can this be Equus?  All suggestions and clarifications appreciated. Did I happen to mention how much I like the fossiling hobby?   Jack

[doushantuo]

horse

more equids

[doushantuo]

Some Hipparion lit

[doushantuo]

smoke(badpun)

[Shellseeker]

2 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

I think i said this before but check out Vera Eisenman's or Ann Forsten's work

So you need info on Hipparionids,Anchitherium,etc?

Yes, you did recommend and I have downloaded and looks at the sections on Hipparionids because that is where my focus was at the time. Thanks and they did help.

My focus this time will be on equus and equus variations. I have a bunch of horse teeth and I have been asked to identify them.  So I need help from forum members on scientific documents they have read and feel it my cut my learning times to better understand quickly equus and some variations that may be mistaken for Equus.

Right thsi instant, I just heard the names Equus Simplicidens or Equus Complicatus , I do not know how many more categories there are for Equus and I do not have pictures of their occlusal patterns, etc. Net:  How do I get smart quickly on Equus?

[doushantuo]

stuff like this?

[doushantuo]

or even this?

[doushantuo]

an informative figure one

[Shellseeker]

doushantuo,  Thank you. I have a few, some of which you likely provided me previously like stuff like this, I managed to glance at more equids,  which is also educational.  I am impressed with the depth of your knowledge, your links to appropriate materials and your willingness to share on a moments notice.

You are certainly one of those TFF experts, I frequently reference..  Thanks again

[Fruitbat]

I'm assuming that you've already checked the Equidae section of my pdf library here on The Fossil Forum.  If not, here's a link to it:  LINK

 

Unfortunately, isolated horse teeth (Equus and most of the other genera) are notoriously difficult to identify to species.  The enamel patterns have a tendency to change, sometimes considerably, with age and wear.  Numerous 'species' that were described on the basis of isolated teeth have been consigned to the waste heap as new and more detailed data has become available.  The enamel 'squiggles', by the way, are called plication.

 

The last two pictures above are hipparionine as indicated by the isolated protocone.

 

-Joe

[doushantuo]

enamel

 

Fruitbat is very very very justified in pointing out his library to you.

It's the original treasure trove of useful docements

[Harry Pristis]

Joe is correct . . . Equus teeth are variable to a degree that Equus sp. is the best label.  I have sent images to R. Hulbert of some variations of those equus-like teeth - some I was confident were non-equus.  Hulbert was patient, consistently pointing out the variation, but they were equus nonetheless.  Plications are highly variable.

 

I think your tooth #1 is an equus left M3,

#2 is an equus right M1 or M2,

#3 is an equus left P3,

#4 is not equus,

#5 is not equus.

 

Most of my inquiries to Hulbert were lower teeth.  I'll show you some when you're working on the lowers.

[Shellseeker]

4 hours ago, Fruitbat said:

I'm assuming that you've already checked the Equidae section of my pdf library here on The Fossil Forum.  If not, here's a link to it:  LINK

 

Unfortunately, isolated horse teeth (Equus and most of the other genera) are notoriously difficult to identify to species.  The enamel patterns have a tendency to change, sometimes considerably, with age and wear.  Numerous 'species' that were described on the basis of isolated teeth have been consigned to the waste heap as new and more detailed data has become available.  The enamel 'squiggles', by the way, are called plication.

 

The last two pictures above are hipparionine as indicated by the isolated protocone.

 

-Joe

Joe,  Thanks for the update. Your library is extremely useful, especially on fossil horses.  I had used the library previously to identify papers associated with Florida fossils and downloaded versions of papers by Hulbert, McFadden. and others.  At one point, I was chasing Cornmohipparion, Nannippus, and Calippus. I did , in that effort, get the feeling that I could differentiate horse species based on isolated teeth.

I mistakenly thought that my friend was going to give me a box of pre-Equus horse teeth to analyze and I was excited by the prospect. When he handed me the box of "Equus" teeth, my initial thought was that there was little I could do to help him,  with or without the scholarly papers. However, just by identifying that isolated protocone on one tooth, I have already helped him.

 

I need to reset how I think about this. I have been asked by a friend to perform a task which may not be possible.  Take 200-300 fossil horse teeth recovered from the Peace River in Florida and attempt to find differentiating features on those teeth that would assist in identifying the horse species. We have managed to do that with one of the teeth (the Hipparrionine Example above). Is it possible to do that for any other teeth in the box?

 

I can see differences like the plication in EquusExample#2 and EquusExample#3. I am wondering if plication differs between different Equus Species.

 

Net:  I have paused while I consider if I have a viable path forward in responding to my friend's request.    Jack

 

[Shellseeker]

27 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

Joe is correct . . . Equus teeth are variable to a degree that Equus sp. is the best label.  I have sent images to R. Hulbert of some variations of those equus-like teeth - some I was confident were non-equus.  Hulbert was patient, consistently pointing out the variation, but they were equus nonetheless.  Plications are highly variable.

 

I think your tooth #1 is an equus left M3,

#2 is an equus right M1 or M2,

#3 is an equus left P3,

#4 is not equus,

#5 is not equus.

 

Most of my inquiries to Hulbert were lower teeth.  I'll show you some when you're working on the lowers.

Thanks Harry,

I am juggling a lot of things between responding plus I go out in the morning with the hunting friend who gave me the box of equus teeth. I agree that the vast majority of the teeth in this box are all Equus .sp independent of any visual differences. I will likely just try to identify visual differences across the teeth I have.

Has anyone (Hulbert, McFadden, etc) identified any subspecies under the Equus genus that would include the Peace River?

Any thoughts on identifying the Hipparionine?  It is 3 times the size of my Nannippus peninsulatus.  No wonder he added it to a box of Equus teeth. 

[Shellseeker]

I looked at this specific link Hulbert, R.C. (1993). Late Miocene Nannippus (Mammalia: Perissodactyla) from Florida, With a Description of the Smallest Hipparionine Horse. Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, 13(3).

 

and found a picture that seems roughly similar for Nannippus westoni. I do not think the Hipparionine from my post above is necessarily westoni, but likely to be Nannippus.

Great resource, Joe.  I will send photos on to Richard Hulbert for his thoughts.

[doushantuo]

Unless I'm very much mistaken,this is one by someone who knows horses

(Name starts with Hulb...)

NB: 21Mb

[doushantuo]

famo

[doushantuo]

equident

[siteseer]

You should PM forum member Fossillarry.  He doesn't post much but he checks out the site from time to time.  He is a mammal collector focusing on ungulates with special interest in horses going all the way back to Hyracotherium.  He used to live not far from me. Years ago,  he went over my collection and identified all my horse teeth and traded me (and gave me) specimens to help fill in what I had of the group especially the Miocene stuff.

 

What I remember of him going over his collection is that Equus simplicidens is an early species found in late Pliocene to maybe Early Pleistocene sites in North America including Florida but it is quite rare in Florida.

 

Jess

 

[Shellseeker]

4 hours ago, doushantuo said:

equident

THANKS!!! Excellent papers by Famoso & Davis that will definitely help.

 

 

2 hours ago, siteseer said:

You should PM forum member Fossillarry.  He doesn't post much but he checks out the site from time to time.  He is a mammal collector focusing on ungulates with special interest in horses going all the way back to Hyracotherium.  He used to live not far from me. Years ago,  he went over my collection and identified all my horse teeth and traded me (and gave me) specimens to help fill in what I had of the group especially the Miocene stuff.

 

What I remember of him going over his collection is that Equus simplicidens is an early species found in late Pliocene to maybe Early Pleistocene sites in North America including Florida but it is quite rare in Florida.

 

Jess

 

Thanks Jess.  I will PM Fossillarry.  He can definitely help me because this is a lot more complex than I initially thought.

Here is another photo of a couple of the teeth

 

[Shellseeker]

Sharing details from Richard Hulbert with TFF members; Richard has been a fantastic resource to all Florida fossil enthusiasts.

Quote

From : Richard C Hulbert,JR Subject : RE: Horse Identification To : Jack Tue, Feb 28, 2017 06:16 PM Sorting 200+ horse teeth sounds like my idea of a lot of fun.  But that is me.  Assuming the measurements are really occlusal length of 22 and width of about 20.5 mm (and the 46.7 is the crown height), then that is too large for Nannippus westoni, despite the similarity in enamel pattern. That is within the size range of upper molars of Cormohipparion ingenuum.  Its teeth usually have more complex folds on the fossettes, but there is a lot of variation in that character.  Another possibility with an upper molar of that size is the species MacFadden and I call Hipparion cf. tehonense.  We use the abbreviation “cf.” to indicate uncertainty.  That species was named from specimens in California, and MacFadden referred a large sample of specimens from north Texas to it. There are Florida teeth that closely resemble those of western Hipparion tehonense, but without complete skulls and mandibles we can’t be sure they are the same species.   With regards to the Equus teeth, if they are all from the Peace River or its tributaries, I have good news.  I am just writing up the results of a 5-year-long study of late Pleistocene Equus teeth from Florida in which I measured thousands of teeth and analyzed them using a variety of statistical methods. My conclusion is that only a single species of Equus is present in Florida during the late Pleistocene. There is a lot of variation in size, but once you have the teeth sorted by tooth position and subdivided into lots with a similar degree of wear, then a lot of that size variation goes away, such that what size variation you have left is within what is found in the teeth of modern species of Equus.   If the sample includes specimens from early Pleistocene shell pits, then you can have multiple species of Equus.   Richard   From: Jack Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 4:38 PM To: Hulbert,Richard C,JR Subject: Horse Identification   Richard, One of my hunting partners gave me a box of 200-300 Equus teeth and asked me to sort by species. I decided to start by sorting for variations. One of the teeth in the box was not Equus but Hipparionine. I looked at this paper and thought it looked a lot like westoni but was confused by the size. Late Miocene Nannippus (Mammalia: Perissodactyla) from Florida, With a Description of the Smallest Hipparionine Horse. Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, 13(3).   Any pointer to papers that help to differentiate Equus is appreciated.  Thanks Jack

EDITED to add photo of tooth compared to the Hipparion cf. tehonense that Richard suggested might be a match.  It is pretty close in a side by side!!! and Richard does NOT see this as a confirmed match.  I found the photo of Nannippus gratum tehonense.

[Shellseeker]

@hahnewald

 

A week ago, I acquired almost the same tooth, but from Nebraska, not Florida

[Balance]

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