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Three Toed Tracks In Coconino Sandstone


SamuelTourville

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I have a piece of Coconino sandstone with tracks from a three toed critter I'd appreciate some help identifying.

 

Thank you.

Slab 4.JPG

Slab 4 a.JPG

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Looks like a set of tracks from a "mammal like reptile". Sorry I don't know a genus or species, but Arizona is a tad far away!

 

http://ftp.llu.edu/lbrand/pdf/fossil_vertebrate_footprints_in_the_coconino_sandstone_(permian)_of_northern_arizona-evidence_for_underwater_origin.pdf

 

https://www.nps.gov/grca/learn/nature/fossils.htm

 

 

 

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Permian, mammal-like reptile, Cheilichnus duncani , I believe. Also called Laoporus. A very nice track way.  

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See

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2 hours ago, EMP said:

The critical reader may wish to explore the source of funding of this work.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See

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Thanks snolly50. Have you found any rebuttals to the article? I do not think that the Coconino formation was deposited in the Great Flood. However, I remember thinking that maybe there were occasional interdune lakes during wet times that might cover the dune deposits.

 

John

My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned.   

See my Arizona Paleontology Guide    link  The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere.       

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48 minutes ago, DPS Ammonite said:

 

Thanks snolly50. Have you found any rebuttals to the article? I do not think that the Coconino formation was deposited in the Great Flood. However, I remember thinking that maybe there were occasional interdune lakes during wet times that might cover the dune deposits.

 

John

 

Hi John, rebuttals abound, but I am loathe to cite them. On a personal level I really can't understand the conflict between science and religion. I certainly come down on the science side, simply because it is self-correcting. If it is wrong, eventually it will change. It does make me sad that many feel that they must "strain at gnats." To me it is far wiser to admit how little we know and embrace the intellect we have been provided to find out all we can. There is no threat in that and certainly no blasphemy. 

 

The Coconino tracks; 

I have slabs that clearly show sharp impressions. Some show clear evidence of foot slides - pushing up a sharply defined wall of sand.

Arthropod tracks, including spiders and centipedes, abound.

There are plates with raindrops.

 

It's a wonderful gift from the past. There is nothing there to argue about or to be overly concerned about. For me, it exists to instruct and amaze.  

 

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See

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Hmm...I'm new to this, but the examples of  Chelichnus I have seen all have four toed impressions. This one is clearly three toes and clawed.

 

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8 hours ago, SamuelTourville said:

Hmm...I'm new to this, but the examples of  Chelichnus I have seen all have four toed impressions. This one is clearly three toes and clawed.

 

Hello, you are correct, 4 toes are often seen. However, it is not uncommon to see a 3 toe only impression in the same trackway as 4 toe prints.

 

Here is a slab I have that displays two distinct ichnogenera. I you click it to enlarge fully, you may be able to spot some 3 toe impressions.

 

cocotracks.jpg.63040efef2dffd0ac16cbdb1f64dc210.jpg  

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See

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12 hours ago, snolly50 said:

The critical reader may wish to explore the source of funding of this work

 

:blink: Oops that's my bad. I didn't have much time so I just found a couple of articles about the rocks and pasted them in for the OP to read through. Glad to know people at least read them :P.

 

I still stand by mammal like reptile though. I don't think tetrapods were common enough in Permian deserts for these tracks, unless I misunderstand the paleo environment.

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@doushantuo

I got through the first argument, then got bogged down in the second and quit. I have another piece pictured under Coconino Sand Tracks here in the Fossil Id section that shows very distinct rippling, which I had assumed was from wave action in shallow (shore) water. I'm still struggling with the idea that these tracks were made in the sand and preserved. It seems to me to be too much of an unstable environment. But of course I'm not an expert.

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1 minute ago, SamuelTourville said:

@doushantuo

I got through the first argument, then got bogged down in the second and quit. I have another piece pictured under Coconino Sand Tracks here in the Fossil Id section that shows very distinct rippling, which I had assumed was from wave action in shallow (shore) water. I'm still struggling with the idea that these tracks were made in the sand and preserved. It seems to me to be too much of an unstable environment. But of course I'm not an expert.

Ripple marks can be caused by wind, and sand can get wet from a rain storm.

Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys."

Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough."

 

My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection

My favorite thread on TFF.

 

 

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Looking at my pieces again in the other thread, two of them show sort of a spear head track, which I imagine could be made by walking down a sand dune, with the beginning of the print starting at a point and the sand compressing and spreading as the foot slides down and finally gains purchase.

Slab 1 9.5 x 20 x 1.75.jpg

Slab 2.JPG

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Dang, I want one of those! You guys make these seem like they're easy to get. I was able to acquire a small piece from New Mexico, Sangre de Cristo Formation of Upper Pecos Valley (Lower Permian) but it pales in comparison.

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I would agree those tracks are probably the result of the animal struggling over rough terrain, essentially it was sliding down the sand for one reason or another (interesting how they're on the same rock with the ripple marks). 

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The thing I don't understand about the idea of the tracks being made underwater, especially moving water, is how they would be preserved in such detail.  Seems the moving water would quickly wash them away.  When I walk on the beach in Maui my tracks barely last 30 seconds, not 300 million years.  What am I missing?

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1 hour ago, Sagebrush Steve said:

The thing I don't understand about the idea of the tracks being made underwater, especially moving water, is how they would be preserved in such detail.  Seems the moving water would quickly wash them away.  When I walk on the beach in Maui my tracks barely last 30 seconds, not 300 million years.  What am I missing?

 

Well it doesn't have to be water. Slick mud, windy conditions (which would explain the "ripple marks"), and/or a sticky substrate can cause an animal (especially a young/aging or sick individual) to struggle while walking. Also, a non-solidified substrate would be that when a print is left it would likely be deformed slightly as the sediment contorts in the solidification process. 

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2 hours ago, EMP said:

 

Well it doesn't have to be water. Slick mud, windy conditions (which would explain the "ripple marks"), and/or a sticky substrate can cause an animal (especially a young/aging or sick individual) to struggle while walking. Also, a non-solidified substrate would be that when a print is left it would likely be deformed slightly as the sediment contorts in the solidification process. 

Yes, that is true.  But if I understand correctly the claim in the Brand paper was that the tracks were made underwater and that the animals were pushed sideways as they walked by the flowing water. My thought was that any water moving swiftly enough to push an animal sideways would quickly wash away its tracks. But I'm no expert in this.

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4 hours ago, Sagebrush Steve said:

Yes, that is true.  But if I understand correctly the claim in the Brand paper was that the tracks were made underwater and that the animals were pushed sideways as they walked by the flowing water. My thought was that any water moving swiftly enough to push an animal sideways would quickly wash away its tracks. But I'm no expert in this.

How old is the paper? I have one on La Brea Tar Pits circa 1920's  that claims the reason for an over abundance of Dire Wolf skeletons at the site is do to the Dire wolf being a very stupid animal.

It is obvious that the paper You are citing is incorrect in the assumption that the prints were laid down in moving water. Even in a stagnant situation the over saturation of the muds surface under the water would cause distortion of the print. However the ripples could have been created under water and the prints after the water had drained off, them another water event could have caused some distortions before burial.

Just some thoughts on the situation.

Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys."

Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough."

 

My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection

My favorite thread on TFF.

 

 

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